Floor failures

[VA5]

Ty all. Have a 300 gallon and was wondering this. Have gone under the house a few times to check beams (tank runs perpendicular to them)
Does anyone know of large tanks on a second floor? I’d be afraid to go past 125’s

 

[Laffy]

Working in engineering, I’ve seen two floor systems “fail” as a result of aquariums. A 120 and 150g. Both 4’ models. While they’ve never ended up in the basement, the tanks in both situation broke several joist and created excessive sagging and damaged the ceiling finishes below. The floors almost felt we were walking on a trampoline. The joist cracked through the middle horizontally from where the fish tank was located. In both cases, as the structure was not accessed for the proposed load prior to installation by an engineer, insurance did NOT cover the structural repairs as an aquarium is not a typical load. Both cases had hired a contractor to provide their opinion and make due on what the contractor thought was acceptable as reinforcement. In both court cases, the contractor’s opinion was dismissed because they are not qualified professionals but rather a trade.

That’s pretty much the extent I can share, unfortunately. Be safe and be smart!

 

[Peter Clark]

This is something I often worry about for my upcoming 120g (4ft) tank build (40g sump in stand). The location we want it is on the main floor of a 70 year old house and we have a basement. Luckily there is a steal beam directly under the location running perpendicular to the tank and it is against an exterior wall, so the plan is to position the tank centered on it (so 2ft on either side) and hope it takes most of the weight. Still fear it tipping to one side of the beam or the other. No way to really reinforce the area from underneath either sadly. My current plan is to just do my absolute best to center it, but it still worries me.

 

[RtomKinMad]

Working in engineering, I’ve seen two floor systems “fail” as a result of aquariums. A 120 and 150g. Both 4’ models. While they’ve never ended up in the basement, the tanks in both situation broke several joist and created excessive sagging and damaged the ceiling finishes below. The floors almost felt we were walking on a trampoline. The joist cracked through the middle horizontally from where the fish tank was located. In both cases, as the structure was not accessed for the proposed load prior to installation by an engineer, insurance did NOT cover the structural repairs as an aquarium is not a typical load. Both cases had hired a contractor to provide their opinion and make due on what the contractor thought was acceptable as reinforcement. In both court cases, the contractor’s opinion was dismissed because they are not qualified professionals but rather a trade.

That’s pretty much the extent I can share, unfortunately. Be safe and be smart!

Thank you for sharing. We live in Wisconsin and have 2 300 gal tanks. Our 6’ 300 gal in over a crawl space and runs opposite the beams. We reinforced with 6 jacks in the crawl space. It also sits on an exterior side of the foundation wall. The other 8’ 300 gal tank is in the livingrooom on the first floor above the basement. We had an engineer look at the floors before installing and he said no way would the floors hold the tank. It is also in the exterior wall running opposite of the beams. We reinforced the floors here too with 6 metal jacks. So far ok and I sure hope we never have any problems. I wasn’t about to try this kind of weight without a professional opinion. We had a 120 gal 4’ over the crawl space but ran the same direction as the beams and then one day with no warning the tank cracked end to end. We thought maybe the crack was from the floor shifting.? Luckily my husband was home and saved all the fish. I still worry about the large tanks.

 

[KrisReef]

Working in engineering, I’ve seen two floor systems “fail” as a result of aquariums. A 120 and 150g. Both 4’ models. While they’ve never ended up in the basement, the tanks in both situation broke several joist and created excessive sagging and damaged the ceiling finishes below. The floors almost felt we were walking on a trampoline. The joist cracked through the middle horizontally from where the fish tank was located. In both cases, as the structure was not accessed for the proposed load prior to installation by an engineer, insurance did NOT cover the structural repairs as an aquarium is not a typical load. Both cases had hired a contractor to provide their opinion and make due on what the contractor thought was acceptable as reinforcement. In both court cases, the contractor’s opinion was dismissed because they are not qualified professionals but rather a trade.

That’s pretty much the extent I can share, unfortunately. Be safe and be smart!

When we were looking for a home I came across a couple of upstairs rooms where the floors were tilted and swooping in at one side. I have always wondered what had happened but reading this thread has helped me figure that mystery out.

"What happened? Was that hole in the floor put there for tank plumbing? "

On that picture posted earlier with the tar paper covering the hole in the floor, that was the former location of the upstairs water closet. The cut in the beam was a relief cut made for the drain pipe that used to sit there.
Edit, actually looks more like under the house, but "upstairs" from the viewers perspective.

 

[wesman42]

This gave me such bad anxiety.....

 

[Smarkow]

I wonder if you can use Neptune's optical sensors to detect variations in pitch...

This is the Bad version of ULM reefer, or maybe a newbie who cuts corners

To poke fun at myself, I could totally be the guy who doesn’t get a pro in to check his 2nd story tank. Then freak out a year later and pay a few hundred bucks for a line of neptune optical sensors every 3” to detect a failing floor.

I did have somebody come in, found out it’s rebar reinforced concrete floor, lol.

 

[Peter Clark]

So this raises two questions for me

First, what type of engineer would one hire for the inspection and where would you find them? Would any structural engineer work?

Next, what would the average range in cost be for the inspection? My suburb of Chicago always is on the higher end of everything, but worth it for peace of mind in this case.

 

[RtomKinMad]

So this raises two questions for me

First, what type of engineer would one hire for the inspection and where would you find them? Would any structural engineer work?

Next, what would the average range in cost be for the inspection? My suburb of Chicago always is on the higher end of everything, but worth it for peace of mind in this case.

I found an engineer the old fashion way, phone book. Called several companies until I found one that did structural engineering. I emailed picture of upstairs, downstairs, basement, tank and specs. Got a brief report paid a couple hundred dollars. But included advise for us to do the work ourselves over a thousand $ for the company to come reinforce the Floors. My husband did it with jacks from Menards ( home store). Basically the engineer told me that floors are not menat to hold that much weight and while they may it is not safe for the beams. That’s just what they told me but I’m not an engineer or a builder so I took his word for it and we used steel support posts and checked level on tank before we filled it, when half full of water and then when full of water, then daily for a week and then monthly we check level on tank to make sure floors aren’t sagging. So far ok.

 

[Smarkow]

So this raises two questions for me

First, what type of engineer would one hire for the inspection and where would you find them? Would any structural engineer work?

Next, what would the average range in cost be for the inspection? My suburb of Chicago always is on the higher end of everything, but worth it for peace of mind in this case.

I hired a contractor for I think $80, basically his time. It was a 210 gallon tank and I had suspicions the floor was sturdy enough to hold a car, but wanted a pro's opinion, so that I could sleep at night. I was well aware that I was paying for an opinion and not a guarantee for insurance coverage. In the event my tank crashed through a concrete floor, insurance coverage would be among the least of my worries. My assets at that time would not have been worth the price of hiring a lawyer to defend! @Laffy's comment above is good advice. I think in the future I will take this more seriously, especially given that as life progresses, more significant assets and liabilities are involved.

For @Peter Clark, this is what a quick home advisor search in Chicago gave me for a structural engineer to "evaluate floor supports."

 

[Smarkow]

monthly we check level on tank to make sure floors aren’t sagging.

Just another maintenance task... Now I'm def getting those Neptune optical sensors........

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you for sharing. We live in Wisconsin and have 2 300 gal tanks. Our 6’ 300 gal in over a crawl space and runs opposite the beams. We reinforced with 6 jacks in the crawl space. It also sits on an exterior side of the foundation wall. The other 8’ 300 gal tank is in the livingrooom on the first floor above the basement. We had an engineer look at the floors before installing and he said no way would the floors hold the tank. It is also in the exterior wall running opposite of the beams. We reinforced the floors here too with 6 metal jacks. So far ok and I sure hope we never have any problems. I wasn’t about to try this kind of weight without a professional opinion. We had a 120 gal 4’ over the crawl space but ran the same direction as the beams and then one day with no warning the tank cracked end to end. We thought maybe the crack was from the floor shifting.? Luckily my husband was home and saved all the fish. I still worry about the large tanks.

Where in Wi? I should maybe consider engineering opinion before new tank is put in place. I too have a crawlspace

 

[ca1ore]

Any house engineered in the past 30 years and built correctly really shouldn’t be a problem. Problem with that statement is builders have been known to cut corners.

Older homes, modular/mobile homes, maybe?

In my opinion almost all of the floor failures started with water damage first. Once the floor gets soaked all bets are off.

I imagine the tank size would have something to say about that!

 

[Tastee]

I recently renovated my bathroom and the person coordinating the work (whom is very good and I have a great relationship with) wanted to cut the timber floor out of the bathroom and replace it with green board. This is in a single storey timber floored house on brick piers.

The problem I pointed out was that on the other side of the bathroom wall was my 65g fish tank, and there was not a joist underneath the bottom plate of the internal wall separating the bathroom from the fish tank room. The next joist was 10” away in the bathroom so if we cut the floorboards the fish tank was going to be sitting on unsupported flooring. Needless to say we didn’t do that (-:

Whilst we considered retrofitting another joist underneath the wall we ended up leaving most of the existing floor intact and just replacing a small section that needed it.

So yes, considering what is supporting your fish tank is important!

 

[PhreeByrd]

Residential wood framed floors, regardless of when the house was built, are never designed to carry the load of anything but a small aquarium. The International Residential Code (Table R301.5) gives the minimum live loads a floor structure must be able to support. The live load is basically anything beyond the weight of the floor structure itself. The minimum live load capacity for most rooms is 40 lbs per square foot, and rarely will a contractor voluntarily exceed this value because it costs extra to do so. The figure is also intended as a general guide, since even when built to this standard, positioning of a load can exceed the design capacity even if it seems that the load doesn't exceed the lbs/sf value.

Yes, definitely, if you're going to install a large tank on a wood framed floor, hire a structural engineer to evaluate the load capacity for your intended installation. A couple hundred bucks for this is a small price, considering that the damage from an unwise installation can easily be many thousands, and insurance will not cover this damage. Almost any wood floor can be reinforced to carry the load, but if you're not very confident about how to do this, then get advice from a professional.

If you don't find a structural engineering office in your yellow pages, call an architect. They will either have a structural engineer on staff or can give you some names.

 

[ParkPlace]

I was just thinking about putting down tile floors in the room containing my tank but I’m concerned about the weight of the tank cracking the tile. Has anyone experienced this? It’s a 200 gallon rectangular tank plus another 30 gallons of sump underneath.

 

[PhreeByrd]

I was just thinking about putting down tile floors in the room containing my tank but I’m concerned about the weight of the tank cracking the tile. Has anyone experienced this? It’s a 200 gallon rectangular tank plus another 30 gallons of sump underneath.

It depends upon the subfloor structure and how much it will deflect. On a concrete subfloor, as long as you use thinset mortar and your tiles are fully bedded, there should be no problem with tiles cracking. A wood framed subfloor could see some issues.

 

[RtomKinMad]

Where in Wi? I should maybe consider engineering opinion before new tank is put in place. I too have a crawlspace

Green Bay. They said if floor was reinforced would be fine. We used 6 jacks under the crawl space. And six in the basement under the 8’ tank. Unfortunately had to place tanks infornt on windows so they are on exterior walls. Back of tanks covered to protect from the light. Have had the tank over crawl space for 2 yrs. no problems so far 300gal reef 6’, marineland tank and is a family room addition, sump is in the basement. The 8’ 300gal is much heavier sapphire glass. Sump in the basement too. We had 180 in the live room over the basement with no problem but I wasn’t about to do the 300! I was going to ask your opinion before we started but didn’t want to bother you so I called an engineer from the phone book. We also have tile floors which add to the weight on the beams. What size tank are you upgrading from your 360?

 

[RtomKinMad]

T

Residential wood framed floors, regardless of when the house was built, are never designed to carry the load of anything but a small aquarium. The International Residential Code (Table R301.5) gives the minimum live loads a floor structure must be able to support. The live load is basically anything beyond the weight of the floor structure itself. The minimum live load capacity for most rooms is 40 lbs per square foot, and rarely will a contractor voluntarily exceed this value because it costs extra to do so. The figure is also intended as a general guide, since even when built to this standard, positioning of a load can exceed the design capacity even if it seems that the load doesn't exceed the lbs/sf value.

Yes, definitely, if you're going to install a large tank on a wood framed floor, hire a structural engineer to evaluate the load capacity for your intended installation. A couple hundred bucks for this is a small price, considering that the damage from an unwise installation can easily be many thousands, and insurance will not cover this damage. Almost any wood floor can be reinforced to carry the load, but if you're not very confident about how to do this, then get advice from a professional.

If you don't find a structural engineering office in your yellow pages, call an architect. They will either have a structural engineer on staff or can give you some names.

this is exactly what the engineer told us! And we reinforced our tank with 6 steal jacks and extra beams. 300gal 8’ sapphire glass tank.

 

[becon776]

Any house engineered in the past 30 years and built correctly really shouldn’t be a problem. Problem with that statement is builders have been known to cut corners.

Older homes, modular/mobile homes, maybe?

and more than 50 yrs they are more solid then today. before code I notice that everything was over engineered. <1950's houses seem the be sooooo solid the lumber used isn't even available today... ex: tongue and groove 3/4" floor boards that run perpendicular to joistscompared to plywood. you would never see that today, just wayyy to much $$$.
however, the 1970's houses are BEWARE. Code and building materials hadnt really been perfected yet and so they were just building as cheap as possible.