For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[SMB]

Except this is the exact opposite of my experience. I’ve lived in europe and had a reef tank while there. Most reefers quarantine and treat RELIGIOUSLY. From what I saw, almost everyone treated their new arrivals prophylactically.

There isn’t some magical system to keep sick fish alive. If you lock 20 humans in 1200 SF apartment without windows or ventilation and then give one of them Ebola, there is no amount of “healthy” food that is going to keep them all from getting Ebola and dying.

For profit aquaculture facilities have worked to eradicate “killer” diseases and have strict bio controls to prevent them from entering their systems. They do that for a reason. It works.

However the overuse of "prophylactic" antibiotics in humans has led to more serious disease resistant organisms and there is every reason to believe this can happen in fish.

 

[AquamanE]

No fish QT.
ALL corals get dipped.

 

[Silver14SS]

I don't QT, but everything in my tank is captive bred. I also use an UV sterilizer, hopefully nothing pops up.

 

[Marie7]

I stopped quarantining long time ago. Never had sustained luck...I feel I end stressing out the fish more by quarantine then taking it to my system)
anecdotal I believe if system is healthy, stable and stress free for the fish(no aggressive inhabitants). Along with proper acclimation, new fish should thrive and overcome mild common issues like ich..etc.
Caveat to this is the source of the fish of course..I am assuming the source is reliable.

As for coral I never quarantine, just dip in coral rx, acclimate properly then add to display tank.

Agree on that

 

[Lasse]

Many people in Sweden practice quarantine and prophylactic treatment.

This is not true at all. We can't access these drugs here. I do not even know anyone that even advocate for prophylactic treatment for the moment. Some use observing QT.

By the way the Swedish reef forum have since this time last year (18-06-04) 14 threads in the disease part of the forum. 3 about white spots, 1 about flukes, 1 about a blind fish, 1 about an unknown disease, 1 about Uronema. 1 very good about fish defence system with a very good link, 1 about deformation of gills, 1 about low salinity, one about best way of killing a dying fish ans so on. Its probably lesser than 1 % of the treads starting during the same time

I’ve lived in europe and had a reef tank while there. Most reefers quarantine and treat RELIGIOUSLY. From what I saw, almost everyone treated their new arrivals prophylactically.

Which country was that?

For profit aquaculture facilities have worked to eradicate “killer” diseases and have strict bio controls to prevent them from entering their systems. They do that for a reason. It works.

Today - very few - as I know - using any type of chemichal prophylactic. This because authorities in many countries have banned this. Bio control is done in othrer ways. Mostly is the preventive works done by methods shown in the article in the link above.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Except your comment isn’t really true and it’s easy to verify:

1. There are many people from Europe that use this board (or similar “American” boards) having the same problems.
2. In a world of google translate, it’s relatively easy to find a board in another country and see that the disease forum there has similar problems and the same discussions. Many people in Sweden practice quarantine and prophylactic treatment.

No, they (we) do not. Like Lasse said most substances have been banned for a long time and there’s no access to them.

And, FWIW, My previous tank started with live rock yanked from the ocean and live sand. That doesn’t prevent ich from ravaging a tank. I’m 100% sure about that and so are the fish that died in that outbreak.

Like I stated, there are several factors that will keep that from happening.
If ich is so lethal why is it that I never get any outbreaks or deaths even though it’s always been present in my systems?

I did stop in a LFS on my last stop in Portugal. It wasn’t anything like our stores here. All the fish were in separate tanks, with separate filtration, and separate nets hanging on each tank. He had a huge room in the back where he quarantined and treated new arrivals. It was immaculate and clean. All the fish were over 50 euro. That’s substantially different from our system where all the fish are held in the same infected system and the goal is to sell the fish for $15 before they show symptoms of the disease they certainly already have. So from that perspective, it probably is more likely that you’ll have better success in Europe even if you don’t bother to quarantine.

Unfortunately that’s not the norm, but yeah, it would be great if it was.

 

[Paul Sands]

By the way the Swedish reef forum have since this time last year (18-06-04) 14 threads in the disease part of the forum. 3 about white spots, 1 about flukes, 1 about a blind fish, 1 about an unknown disease, 1 about Uronema. 1 very good about fish defence system with a very good link, 1 about deformation of gills, 1 about low salinity, one about best way of killing a dying fish ans so on. Its probably lesser than 1 % of the treads starting during the same time

That site has so little traffic and activity that 14 threads is a significant portion and proves that whatever magical methods that you claim are being practiced in Sweden simply aren’t foolproof or aren’t really being followed by the vast majority of hobbyists.

 

[DSC reef]

That site has so little traffic and activity that 14 threads is a significant portion and proves that whatever magical methods that you claim are being practiced in Sweden simply aren’t foolproof or aren’t really being followed by the vast majority of hobbyists.

Your referring to a very experienced hobbyist with vast knowledge and a very helpful member of the reefing community. You don't have to be rude. Lasse doesn't have magical methods, we all do what works for us in this awesome hobby. I notice your new here, we are a friendly and helpful bunch. If you read through lasses threads among many others here you might learn something as we all have experience that can help others. I don't quarintine but I won't knock members for running their reef how they want too. Many ways to enjoy the hobby.

 

[Kmsutows]

Except this is the exact opposite of my experience. I’ve lived in europe and had a reef tank while there. Most reefers quarantine and treat RELIGIOUSLY. From what I saw, almost everyone treated their new arrivals prophylactically.

There isn’t some magical system to keep sick fish alive. If you lock 20 humans in 1200 SF apartment without windows or ventilation and then give one of them Ebola, there is no amount of “healthy” food that is going to keep them all from getting Ebola and dying.

For profit aquaculture facilities have worked to eradicate “killer” diseases and have strict bio controls to prevent them from entering their systems. They do that for a reason. It works.

Except for our fish copper is a poison. It would be more like everyone taking chemo just in case they have cancer. Given you're Ebola analogy, I agree with its comparison to maybe velvet but not ich. And even then there are methods that have been proven for decades like UV and ozone. Those methods make the Ebola analogy irrelevant.

It kills me how UV and ozone are a second thought and aren't taught right off the bat. No tank should ever be started without these methods.

 

[Kmsutows]

However the overuse of "prophylactic" antibiotics in humans has led to more serious disease resistant organisms and there is every reason to believe this can happen in fish.

Exactly!!!

 

[roberthu526]

I run overdose UV to battle the risk. I had experience with icy and velvet. Now I will never run a tank without properly sized UV. It’s a small investment for peace of mind.

 

[asting]

My plan is always the same. I don't QT, I only buy from one LFS and I normally pay for what I want and ask him to QT it for me. He keeps the fish on a "Sold" tank he has and I go there weekly anyways to say hi, see what else is new and look at the fish I bought. When I feel comfortable and he gives it the green light, I take it home.

If your LFS cares about the hobby as much as you do, they should have no problem doing this for you.

I have never had any issues doing things this way so far, but it might also be luck.

I've seen similar tanks at my LFS, but they are all plumbed together so that doesn't give me much faith over just taking it home that day.

 

[Paul Sands]

Except for our fish copper is a poison. It would be more like everyone taking chemo just in case they have cancer. Given you're Ebola analogy, I agree with its comparison to maybe velvet but not ich. And even then there are methods that have been proven for decades like UV and ozone. Those methods make the Ebola analogy irrelevant.

It kills me how UV and ozone are a second thought and aren't taught right off the bat. No tank should ever be started without these methods.

Why? Ich is easy to eradicate from every fish. It takes 14 days and two quarantine tanks. Not a single medication. Why would you spend hundreds of dollars on a UV filter, maintenance, and yearly running costs when you can simply eradicate ich from your system from the beginning?

I don’t need a UV or ozone filter because I don’t have diseases in my tank that need to be managed. They simply don’t exist.

 

[Dolelo96]

this is what happens when you don’t QT. I never have for the 6 years I have been in the hobby. then the unthinkable happens. I put in a cleaner wrasse who unknowingly had velvet as he was not showing any signs. This took out 10 of my 14 fish. I was able to save 4 by the time I was able to catch who was still alive. I QT all fish now for 30 days. Start with prazi. then therapeutic leaves of copper power. then observation after that. It takes a major catastrophe to happen to open your eyes. Never lost a fish other than a jumper.

I lost a powder blue, pajama cardinal, 3 stripe and yellow tail damasls, yellow tang, paired clowns, cleaner wrasse and one other

So sorry you had to go through that. The same thing happened to me last year...I went three years without any diseases. Never worried about quarantine because I only bought my fish & corals from my lfs and one online vendor. Then I got dazed with corals I saw on a online auction. Dipped my pretty corals not knowing that dip doest kill eggs. Velvet showed up two weeks later, by the time we got them out of the it was too late. I lost a Whitetail Bristletooth Tang, Melanarus Wrasse, McCosker Wrasse, 1 male & 2 female Lyretail Anthias & 2 Black Ice Snowflake Clowns.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Your referring to a very experienced hobbyist with vast knowledge and a very helpful member of the reefing community. You don't have to be rude. Lasse doesn't have magical methods, we all do what works for us in this awesome hobby. I notice your new here, we are a friendly and helpful bunch. If you read through lasses threads among many others here you might learn something as we all have experience that can help others. I don't quarintine but I won't knock members for running their reef how they want too. Many ways to enjoy the hobby.

I don’t like @Lasse either.. and I have been here a short time too.

.nah. ..he is awesome, deserve every ounce of respect given regardless of agree or not

you rock sir...

Now back to the issue. I see a lot of people, including myself focusing on nutrition. It is a huge part. But I also focus on environment. Not just water conditions, but actual housing. I think nutrition and environment go hand in hand.

I 100% believe mind and body are connected. Feed a prisoner living in a 5x5 box fish, rice and grains and it will not make him any healthy a specimen. Put the same man in an environment with comfortable temperatures, ample lighting, relaxing amenities and see a difference using the same food.

I think there is a huge missed opportunity is in researching environments we put our fish in. Show me 1 thread that talks about a certain environment needed for a certain fish, not just salinity. I dare you. (Not really since I am not sure there is not threads like that out there)

We don’t see zoos putting giraffes in desserts. We don’t move from Alaska to Miami without changing wardrobes. I am a city guy, put me in rural Alabama and not soo good.

Anyway, thanks for reading, and if you got this far, thank you Lasse.

 

[MCloudy21]

Simply don't have the room for a qt tank I try to reduce risk by buying from the same store with as few exceptions as possible and I try to get stock that has been there 30 days plus

 

[Lasse]

That site has so little traffic and activity that 14 threads is a significant portion and proves that whatever magical methods that you claim are being practiced in Sweden simply aren’t foolproof or aren’t really being followed by the vast majority of hobbyists.

Yes, exactly my opinion - it is a significant prove that diseases is not a large problem here. It corresponds to lesser than 1 % of posted threads during that time. Compared with US forums – SG is a very small forum but to compare a forum that is written in a language speaking by 10 million and with forums written in one of the largest languages in the world - is not very fair.

But we use rather magical methods, I call them holistic, ecological, work with the nature (not against it), scientifically accepted methods and so on. I just not like to nuke everything I do not like (and with that much I like too), I prefer to use surgical instruments first instead of using the sledgehammer directly.

Everything has two sides linked together – in this case pathogens contra immune responses. You can´t change one of the without changing the other.

I don’t need a UV or ozone filter because I don’t have diseases in my tank that need to be managed. They simply don’t exist.

My build thread (more than 80 pages) show up a disease-free tank (not the same as free for facultative pathogens) – would love to see your tank too.

I put a simple question to you - which country in EU did you live in and when - glad if you could answer that:

I’ve lived in europe and had a reef tank while there. Most reefers quarantine and treat RELIGIOUSLY. From what I saw, almost everyone treated their new arrivals prophylactically.

Just doing a fact check.

being followed by the vast majority of hobbyists

At the moment - this poll show:
25.7 % using QT (not any split between chemical prophylactic treatment and observe only)
16.9 % using QT to both corals and fish (not any split between chemical prophylactic treatment and observe only)
31.6 % just pray and drop
23.9 % using other ways of minmize the risk

After a long time using my ten fingers in order to make a summary of this - I come up with 42.6 % use some type of QT and 55.5 % do not use any form of normal QT. Further more I use Google translate (as suggested earlier) and try to figure out what vast majority means on my language - what I understand it is a synonym for large majority and the figures in this poll show a 12.9 % difference between the two options- favouring the ones that not QT at all. Of the 42.6 % using QT there is some not using chemical prophylactic treatment so what I can see - even in the US there is a minority using the method advocating by you in other threads. I´m not a fan of "drop and pray" - I am advocating some type of mitigation procedure like carefully picks, the refugium method or observation QT - but putting my newcomers into a chemical warfare without needing it - is IMO as dangerous as "drop and pray".

And thank you @DSC reef and @Mastiffsrule for your kind words

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Kmsutows]

Why? Ich is easy to eradicate from every fish. It takes 14 days and two quarantine tanks. Not a single medication. Why would you spend hundreds of dollars on a UV filter, maintenance, and yearly running costs when you can simply eradicate ich from your system from the beginning?

I don’t need a UV or ozone filter because I don’t have diseases in my tank that need to be managed. They simply don’t exist.

That couldnt be further from the truth because it's not as simple as a 14 day QT unless you quarantine your coral, live rock, snails, everything. If not then you have no backup plan. All those things have the potential to bring in disease/parasites. There is also good chance, if all you do is a 14 day observation, that you do in fact have parasites of some kind in your tank but your fish have immunity to it. You dont always see ich because it attaches to the gills. A few hundred dollars is nothing in this hobby to have as reassurance in case you bring in a disease. It doesnt need to be run 24/7, I haven't run mine since last year.

 

[bluprntguy]

At the moment - this poll show:
25.7 % using QT (not any split between chemical prophylactic treatment and observe only)
16.9 % using QT to both corals and fish (not any split between chemical prophylactic treatment and observe only)
31.6 % just pray and drop
23.9 % using other ways of minmize the risk

A separate thread on this site shows 420 people would pay 2x -5x more for certified quarantined fish while only 180 people would not pay anything extra. Clearly there is a demand for quarantined, disease free fish and people would rather avoid these diseases.

This post was clearly labeled as anti-quarantine mitigation. Very few people that practice quarantine will bother to even click on this link because they are just going to get bashed and have arguments with people like you that have an agenda.

If your point is that more people on reef2reef don’t bother to quarantine than do quarantine, then I think that you also need to own all the posts in the disease forum of sick and dying fish. Over the past month or so I’ve seen at least three posts about complete tank wipeouts from people putting diseased fish in their tanks without quarantining. Add to that the daily posts asking for help for dying fish in display tanks because they didn’t quarantine.

Why is it that the people on here that advocate for responsible husbandry practices like quarantining are also the only ones trying to help people in the disease forum while the people advocating for “plop and drop” and no quarantine are nowhere to be found when people need help recovering from the disasters that diseases create in our captive systems?

 

[DSC reef]

Please, that poll is just a way to make it easier to receive "healthier" fish to avoid home quarintine. If you base everyone off a thread poll then your sorely mistaken. Why is it that people are looked down on if they don't follow the masses and quarintine? I'm sorry @bluprntguy good husbandry is different. Why is that members with your logic only think people are responsible if they only quarintine? Yet if people loose fish in quarintine then it's ok but someone is irresponsible if they lost a fish in their display and didn't quarintine. The same response always happens, "you could've avoided that fish death if you had a quarintine setup". If you want to quarintine then go ahead, nobody is stopping you. Try to have an open mind for how others want to run there tanks as I don't bash members if they want to quarintine even though I do not. To answer your question, I don't help out in disease threads due to having limited knowledge of disease as we never had to deal with it in over 10 years and I don't quarintine. Hmmmm.