For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[Kmsutows]

A separate thread on this site shows 420 people would pay 2x -5x more for certified quarantined fish while only 180 people would not pay anything extra. Clearly there is a demand for quarantined, disease free fish and people would rather avoid these diseases.

This post was clearly labeled as anti-quarantine mitigation. Very few people that practice quarantine will bother to even click on this link because they are just going to get bashed and have arguments with people like you that have an agenda.

If your point is that more people on reef2reef don’t bother to quarantine than do quarantine, then I think that you also need to own all the posts in the disease forum of sick and dying fish. Over the past month or so I’ve seen at least three posts about complete tank wipeouts from people putting diseased fish in their tanks without quarantining. Add to that the daily posts asking for help for dying fish in display tanks because they didn’t quarantine.

Why is it that the people on here that advocate for responsible husbandry practices like quarantining are also the only ones trying to help people in the disease forum while the people advocating for “plop and drop” and no quarantine are nowhere to be found when people need help recovering from the disasters that diseases create in our captive systems?

You're missing the point completely. There are other means of keeping your fish healthy than QT. There is a time and place for QT like buying a fish you know has something or if there is a fish so overwhelmed its beyond their immune system to fight it. I personally advocate for UV or ozone as it's been PROVEN for decades. Fish are built tough, if given what they need they will thrive even if a parasite is present. They have great immune systems if cared for correctly. QT sterilizes a fish and hurts their immune system especially if profalactic treatment is used. That's why theres so many threads of people not being able to keep a fish alive in QT.

 

[Lasse]

(From one who has had at least one 'talking to' about the tone of my posts)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Over the years I have used many methods but by the far the hardest and least successful for me was chemical and antibiotic pre-treatment before placement in the display tank. The reasons for failure are compounded by the necessity to maintain water quality in regards to biological filtration during chemical and antibiotic treatment. Unless you can maintain complete control over the water condition and medication level you increase the possible damage to the fish. People who work for a living have to manage the aquarium in a time frame that allows for work...so many fish die while they earn a living and the water condition deteriorates.

As a result I prefer UV sterilization and the possible use of ozone injection into the skimmer as a way to keep populations of causative organisms below pathogenic levels. I have had great success with this method versus the high fish loss of prophylactic treatment.

@Lasse has explained in depth there are successful methods used by aquaculture, public aquaria, and local fish stores in Sweden of which he has been a professional resource and technician for many years. To have one or several people on this thread insult this gentleman is an affront to the R2R community. As a result there are at least three of you that have earned the "ignore" award. I have watched your discussion on this subject on other threads and your behavior is worthy of being banned in my opinion....but that might limit your ability to learn and live at a better level. So I can just "ignore" you as having nothing of value to add to the conversation and move on.

I have often homed fish from local sources without much of a problem. I also believe in using mostly live natural rock and adding filter feeding inverts before the fish in a system...often 6 months in advance of the fish. The more diverse and mature the system the less important the UV and ozone in my experience.

 

[Lasse]

Thanks @Lowell Lemon

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Thanks @Lowell Lemon

Sincerely Lasse

You are welcome and I appreciate the science, experience, humor, and civility, you bring to the discussion. Thank you for the resource you bring to the forum!

 

[Lasse]

The same here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[bluprntguy]

Because it isn't obviously false, and this is a weak attempt at trolling.
Saying that everyone who says they add fish directly is doing no more than "plop and drop" is like saying everyone who doesn't treat every fish with copper, prazi and metro isn't really QT'ing. Obviously a false statement in the other direction.
There are ways to mitigate disease and risk within a DT.

We obviously disagree that “plop and drop” and “just dump it” are substantially the same thing. One’s a meme posted in this very thread by someone that probably voted for “just dump it”. It wasn’t an attempt at trolling. I’m assuming both mean buy a fish, float, and put them straight into your display tank. I’m pretty sure that everyone reading this thread (except you) has a similar interpretation. I used “plop and drop” because it was used in this thread by someone that obviously follows this approach.

QT sterilizes a fish and hurts their immune system especially if profalactic treatment is used. That's why theres so many threads of people not being able to keep a fish alive in QT.

Please provide support for this statement. ORA, Biota, Sea and Reef and literally hundreds of other breeders have chosen to eliminate disease from their breeding stock and implement bio controls in order to protect their livestock because they’ve found they are more successful at keeping and breeding fish that are free of disease. You are suggesting that the scientists, biologists, and hobbyists that are successfully breeding fish are wrong and that every aquaculture facility that raises fish for food are wrong.

I worked at a pet store in high school and literally quarantined thousands of fish. We did that because the owner found that it was cheaper to pay us to do the work (at the time) than it was to lose the fish that we pulled out of the massive sales tank he had (with UV) on a daily basis if we didn’t quarantine. Personally, I just had 7 fish go through quarantine and TTM and didn’t lose a single one. If you are just talking about TTM or observation, there is almost no difference between what it takes to maintain a quarantine tank and what it takes to maintain a display tank. Other than the fish that were sick to begin with, where are these posts of people that can’t keep a fish alive in quarantine?

 

[WVNed]

You do stuff and don't get disease.
I do nothing and don't get disease. For more than 10 years. I have been told I am just lucky. The kind of fish I keep are resistant. Lot's of stuff.

I fail to see where you have proved you are accomplishing anything by not getting a disease... since you have accomplished the equivalent of doing nothing.

 

[DSC reef]

@bluprntguy you say you just had 7 fish go through TTM, was that for your 32 gallon or do you have another tank? Just curious

 

[bluprntguy]

@bluprntguy you say you just had 7 fish go through TTM, was that for your 32 gallon or do you have another tank? Just curious

2 of them were a shipment of fish that I didn’t order so I quarantined them and gave them to a local reefer. The other 5 fish are in my nano.

 

[Brew12]

We obviously disagree that “plop and drop” and “just dump it” are substantially the same thing. One’s a meme posted in this very thread by someone that probably voted for “just dump it”. It wasn’t an attempt at trolling. I’m assuming both mean buy a fish, float, and put them straight into your display tank. I’m pretty sure that everyone reading this thread (except you) has a similar interpretation. I used “plop and drop” because it was used in this thread by someone that obviously follows this approach.

So you would feel better if they put them in a QT system for 15 minutes prior to putting them in the DT? Why do you feel there is such a huge difference between caring for fish in a DT as opposed to a QT if in the end you will treat them all the same way? It seems that TTM is little more than lots of plops and drops.

You are suggesting that the scientists, biologists, and hobbyists that are successfully breeding fish are wrong and that every aquaculture facility that raises fish for food are wrong.

There is a difference between not purposefully adding parasites to brood stock and actively eradicating them with chemicals.

Not sure if you are aware, but you are arguing with some people who fall into the biologist category and others who have experience working aquaculture. The current trend is away from parasite eradication. As of this year in Canada, aquaculture facilities can no longer administer antibiotics like metro without a veterinary prescription and that vet must perform an in-person evaluation of the fish.

 

[MnFish1]

We obviously disagree that “plop and drop” and “just dump it” are substantially the same thing.

I agree - they are the same. But - different people might mean different things (i.e answer the poll).

Please provide support for this statement. ORA, Biota, Sea and Reef and literally hundreds of other breeders have chosen to eliminate disease from their breeding stock and implement bio controls in order to protect their livestock because they’ve found they are more successful at keeping and breeding fish that are free of disease.

I agree - most zoos, aquaria have some kind of biosecurity protocol. So far - except for saying that you're for QT - Which protocol do you like to use? Then its something to discuss until then - its just 'nothing', IMHO

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

I have been in and out of this hobby for 20+ yrs and what has changed so much to cause diseases to be such a problem. Have we forgot what it takes to have a health tank with all the latest and greatest advances in equipment? It seems if we look at some of the old timers we find they run the basics that have worked for yrs. I personnel just acclimate the fish to my tank over a couple hrs. or as Lasse has said put in sump to watch if I have doubts. As far as corals I inspect for anything the fish in my tank and corals can't handle and acclimate and drop in. I can't see were the TTM method is good as always switching fish from one tank or bucket to the next is just adding stress to the fish as it can't settle down it will be stressed all the time. This is just my way not Bashing or starting anything with anybody if one thing I have learned over the yrs what works for one will not work for all to many verables . Mike

 

[bluprntguy]

So you would feel better if they put them in a QT system for 15 minutes prior to putting them in the DT?

Apparently I have to qualify that a rational amount of quarantine is better, but yes, I’d say that 15 minutes in quarantine and observation to check for things that you might not have seen at the store is better than nothing. A few days is probably better. A few weeks is probably even better. That allows you to catch things before you infect your display tank. I don’t really think that’s a difficult thing to understand. I’ve not found quarantine or TTM to be stressful to fish, in fact generally the opposite.

Why do you feel there is such a huge difference between caring for fish in a DT as opposed to a QT if in the end you will treat them all the same way?

Let’s see, you buy a fish. It looks perfectly healthy. You take it home and put it in your display tank. It develops velvet and infects your entire tank. Now all your fish have velvet. How do you plan to treat them in the display tank? Is there an effective way to manage velvet? What would you do?

Alternatively, you buy the same fish, put him in quarantine, you notice velvet, you treat the one fish. All your other fish are still fine. Hopefully you can save the one fish that got velvet and cure him.

Seems way easier to treat the one sick fish that’s already in quarantine than to have to tear your reef apart and find a way to treat all your fish.

Not sure if you are aware, but you are arguing with some people who fall into the biologist category and others who have experience working aquaculture. The current trend is away from parasite eradication. As of this year in Canada, aquaculture facilities can no longer administer antibiotics like metro without a veterinary prescription and that vet must perform an in-person evaluation of the fish.

Yes, I’m just a hobbyist. There is a white paper from sea and reef where they explain how they’ve eradicated diseases from their stock. I have a lengthy email from ORA from a few months ago stating that they’ve worked to eliminate disease and that their stock is free of the major diseases that most hobbyists are concerned about. I went behind the scenes at Steinhart aquarium a few years ago and saw first hand their extensive quarantine and treatment procedures. AlgaeBarn explained how they work to keep their macros/pods separate from fish in order to prevent spread of diseases in a post on this very board a few weeks ago. I was the architect for a freshwater aquaculture and research facility and spent years working with their biologists to insure that the building was designed and constructed to prevent accidental infections and insure strict biocontrols. From my perspective, it seems that the vast majority of professionals in the industry are still working to eliminate/prevent disease to the greatest extent possible, not manage it. I get that there are people that are experimenting with other options, and kudos to them for trying, but I don’t see that a “trend” away from eradication and control and the biologists I worked with didn’t see things that way either.

FWIW, You might actually be able to convince me of the management approach, but your post on the first page of this thread are four things that I have always done and one thing that it seems you agree is experimental at best. Those approaches haven’t worked for me in the past to “manage” ich or velvet and I’ve had losses. That may be due to my lack of knowledge or the size of my tank, but it’s certainly not foolproof for me or most hobbyists from what I see. I have been significantly more successful avoiding diseases and keeping them out of my tank and I frankly think it’s just less work in the long run.

 

[Lasse]

@bluprntguy you have done a massive attack on me and say that I´m against QT and for pray and drop. Pray and drop will work in 90 % of the cases if you are able to chose your own purchase from a wellknown LFS. At least here in Sweden - but I have - in this thread advocating both "vacation introduction" in the refugium and observing QT - not pray and drop.

For a guy as me that have spent more than half my life in fishfarms (it means more than 34.5 years ), LFS, public aquarium and experimental indoors fishfarming it is clear that you never put your foot in a commersial fishfarm - Probably 90 % of the worlds production of fish for food take place in natural waters - in rivers, in ponds, in net cages and so on. It means that both fry and adults always is exposed for natural occouring faculative pathogens and the fishfarmer has to relay on the immunesystem of the fish. Using antibiotics, thats was rather common years ago (but never ever have been allowed in many countries like Sweden) is banned in many countries nowadays, consumers in at least Europa demand medicine free fish. Medicines like Furan has been banned for more than 20 years for fishfarming of human food worldwide. I show your text for my Hungarian friend that I visit just now. He is a Swede - working with fishfarms since 1984 around Europe - he just laught. UV-C was the most used anti-pathogen equipment he has used beside vaccinations.

Further - for a guy that in the 80:ties have a hobby fish farm for Tanganyika cichlids - breading most of the more difficult species (at that time) like Neolamprologus furcifer (I think we was first in the world to do that in a continuous way), Altolamprologus compressiceps. A.calvus and other of the legendary fishes of Lake Tanganyika – your comments about rearing aquarium fishes are ridiculous. Yes we sold disease free fishes – but free of potent pathogens never. At the contrary – we was very carefully to bread in an environment that was as natural as the receiving tanks was.

For a guy that have been working with LFS – your argument is rather ridicules too. We know that we never could combine fishes from different wholesalers direct they are arriving. We must place them in different aquarium and during time slowly “infect” their waters with water from the other wholesaler – than it works to combine them after a while. Everything we do have to strength their immune system and not focus on eradicate every possible pathogen.

During nearly 15 years I was a teacher for one of the oblicate eudication courses for workers in LFS in Sweden. Guess my special skills

If your breeders will concentrate on sterile environment for their fry’s – it will be a catastrophe for the receivers of these fishes. It has already been shown in the world of freshwater fish breading. Around 90 % of the possible bacterial pathogens for fish are facultative – it means that they can be harmless but also true pathogens if the immune system is depressed of stress or other factors. A typical bacterial disease of this type is the one that can occur in ponds that heat up quickly during spring. The temperature help the bacteria to propagate but the temperature depended immune system adapt itself in a slower way. A disease caused of normally accepted bacteria will be the result

However – there is a few both viral and bacterial organism that are obligate pathogens (they will always create a disease) but these are not among the ones we are discussing now. It is pathogens that will spread in a vertical manner – it means that a female with this disease will spread it to the off springs through the eggs – VHS and BKD is diseases of this type. Today – EU demand that imported breed ornamental fishes are free of this type of diseases.

I´m sure that most LFS in the US know this things too and works in a proffesional way.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

at Steinhart aquarium a few years ago and saw first hand their extensive quarantine and treatment procedures.

As I understand - Steinhart does not use chemical prothylactic treatment @Thales - correct me if I´m wrong

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

One of the LFS in Gothenburg I know had problems with their freshwater fishes. They get sick, they die and they behave in a funny way. They have not been that way before the whole incomming water system was renovated. They have a continuously water changing system with temperated water. We found a lot of copper in the water (it had not been there before) and they change the water changing system to only put in cold water. This make the levels decrease and many of the symptoms disapear but first after they took a part of the water through a RO it was really good again. But they did not have any algae in the system during the cooper time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[bluprntguy]

As I understand - Steinhart does not use chemical prothylactic treatment @Thales - correct me if I´m wrong
Sincerely Lasse

I can answer that for you. They don’t treat prophylactically. Quarantine DOES NOT EQUAL prophylactic treatment. Quarantine = quarantine.

Here’s the definition of quarantine in English: a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

Notice it says NOTHING about prophylactic treatment.

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

Lasse I have to agree with you I am from Ca. but moved to NV when I lived in CA I visited a couple breeders of Freshwater fish most of them were ponds and big rubbermade tubs that they raised there fish in and all were by a river are lake were they got there water supply from.

 

[DSC reef]

I can answer that for you. They don’t treat prophylactically. Quarantine DOES NOT EQUAL prophylactic treatment. Quarantine = quarantine.

Here’s the definition of quarantine in English: a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

Notice it says NOTHING about prophylactic treatment.

Wow, an English lesson too! I hope this was not a stab at a members poor English due to being in another part of the world because that would be very poor taste and just discredit your points you've been trying to make.