For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

Do you quarantine (QT) your livestock before adding to the tank?

  • Fish only QT

    Votes: 124 25.2%
  • Coral only QT

    Votes: 7 1.4%
  • Fish and Coral get QT

    Votes: 85 17.2%
  • I don't QT livestock I just dump it!

    Votes: 155 31.4%
  • I don't QT livestock but I take steps to mitigate the risk. (respond to the thread please)

    Votes: 122 24.7%

  • Total voters
    493
Wow, an English lesson too! I hope this was not a stab at a members poor English due to being in another part of the world because that would be very poor taste and just discredit your points you've been trying to make.

No, it was an attempt to be clear and make sure that we were all using words to mean the same thing because it’s obvious that isn’t the case right now. I said quarantine. Lasse incorrectly claimed I said prophylactic treatment. Anyone can scroll back and see it’s not the case and those are two entirely different things.
 
No, it was an attempt to be clear and make sure that we were all using words to mean the same thing because it’s obvious that isn’t the case right now. I said quarantine. Lasse incorrectly claimed I said prophylactic treatment. Anyone can scroll back and see it’s not the case and those are two entirely different things.
Then why did you just say that, instead of a definition.
 
I can answer that for you. They don’t treat prophylactically. Quarantine DOES NOT EQUAL prophylactic treatment. Quarantine = quarantine.

Here’s the definition of quarantine in English: a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

Notice it says NOTHING about prophylactic treatment.
Thats right - but you indicate this with the words in this quote
saw first hand their extensive quarantine and treatment procedures.
and it can´t be a surprise for you that I all the time have say that I am against chemical prophylactic treatments - I did that clear to you in a previus post with both capital and bold letters. On the other hand you have not distinct between this two types of QT before your english lession. When it shows up that I knew what Steinharts treatment protocol was - you have to try to save your face. Since one year back I have been very clear with the difference between chemical prophylactic treatment QT and observing QT just because not mix them together like it is normally done. If I ever write only QT - it is a misstake - but I have not done that in this thread. I have been very clear with what I mean.

When you start your attack on me and state

This post was clearly labeled as anti-quarantine mitigation. Very few people that practice quarantine will bother to even click on this link because they are just going to get bashed and have arguments with people like you that have an agenda.
- indicating that I am against QT what ever. It was a reply on a post there I with help of the poll in this thread show that Paul Sands statement that the vaste amount of hobyists use QT was false. The poll in this thread shows that´s not true at all 33.3 % do not QT at all and 24.4 % do not QT but use other methods to mitigate the risk - Nearly 58 % does not QT and threrefore Paul Sands statement is false. In your qoute - you did not mentioned that this calculation was an answer to a claim - showing that the claim was wrong - and therefore you could label my answer as anti-quarantine mitigartion.

Its not me sliding around with unprecise terms - I have ben clear lik crystal what I mean - on the other hand - you have been slipped around like people do after a night in the town.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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I must admit, after having saltwater fish most of my 53 years, I’m amazed at the number of experienced fish keepers having success without quarantine. I really thought that anyone with success for 10 years or so would be doing it. I’ve been burned bad in the past so I always quarantine now. Copper and now general cure. Every time. Makes me think...
 
I must admit, after having saltwater fish most of my 53 years, I’m amazed at the number of experienced fish keepers having success without quarantine. I really thought that anyone with success for 10 years or so would be doing it. I’ve been burned bad in the past so I always quarantine now. Copper and now general cure. Every time. Makes me think...

Keep on with the way that suit you but probably you can try once with only observing QT -however - have proper medicines on hand.

Sincerely Lasse
 
We obviously disagree that “plop and drop” and just dump it” are substantially the same thing. One’s a meme posted in this very thread by someone that probably voted for “just dump it”. It wasn’t an attempt at trolling. I’m assuming both mean buy a fish, float, and put them straight into your display tank. I’m pretty sure that everyone reading this thread (except you) has a similar interpretation. I used “plop and drop” because it was used in this thread by someone that obviously follows this approach.



Please provide support for this statement. ORA, Biota, Sea and Reef and literally hundreds of other breeders have chosen to eliminate disease from their breeding stock and implement bio controls in order to protect their livestock because they’ve found they are more successful at keeping and breeding fish that are free of disease. You are suggesting that the scientists, biologists, and hobbyists that are successfully breeding fish are wrong and that every aquaculture facility that raises fish for food are wrong.

I worked at a pet store in high school and literally quarantined thousands of fish. We did that because the owner found that it was cheaper to pay us to do the work (at the time) than it was to lose the fish that we pulled out of the massive sales tank he had (with UV) on a daily basis if we didn’t quarantine. Personally, I just had 7 fish go through quarantine and TTM and didn’t lose a single one. If you are just talking about TTM or observation, there is almost no difference between what it takes to maintain a quarantine tank and what it takes to maintain a display tank. Other than the fish that were sick to begin with, where are these posts of people that can’t keep a fish alive in quarantine?

When did I say eliminating disease was bad? That literally doesn't make sense. Especially when I've advocated time and time again for UV and ozone usage. Additionally, its basic science. It's why vaccinations work and certain vaccines need multiple applications after time. Fish that have been exposed will have a stronger immune response the next time. Again, you miss the point and go off in different directions. But just to entertain you, I am a biologist with 15+years experience. And as you point out... a primary reason those vendors practice what you do is for their sales and what they can sell. Claiming "disease free" is quite a statement. "Immune fish for sale" doesnt quite have the same affect. There is reason aquariums and fisheries have used UV and Ozone for decades. QT is not easily 100% accomplished. It appears by all the QT failure threads most people do not QT properly.
 
At the moment I have 6 Dart fish in QT. I have a very reliable LFS but picking out robust Dart fish from a large group is not all that easy.
3 of the fish are under weight and if they were placed directly into the DT they would surely starve. The water in the QT comes from the DT and all parameters are identical.
Dart fish are comfortable as a group and they are very settled in QT. Plus I can feed them 4-6 times a day to get them back to their playing weight. Also I can offer multiple foods and now have them eating pellets. I consider this important bc it is easy to soak pellets in medication should that be necessary.
My sump is not a suitable acclimation area and I think these fish are much better served being fed and observed in their own tank.
If I had chosen a single larger, easier to inspect fish, that was eating, I might simply acclimate it to the DT.
 
I think most people who don't QT are looking at where they buy their livestock. If the lfs is QTing already, whats the problem in just acclimating before they're introduced into the DT?
Nothing, That's basically what I do, only the LFS where I buy fish doesn't QT. So I do it the old fashion way, I examine all the fish in the system that are connected, generally that's 2 or 3 tanks that share a sump. I also talk to the OWNER about when the fish was received and so on, He will give his recommendations, he does not want to be known for Killing a tank.
 
General comment: Here's a list of the people battling ich, velvet, flukes, black ich, etc. on r2r just this weekend. I'm sure I've missed a few. I *think* they were all people that didn't bother to quarantine their fish except for one who quarantined and treated and the fish developed ich from the tank. A few of these folks are so defeated that they are leaving or contemplating leaving the hobby entirely.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-in-the-tank-what-do-i-do.607563/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/feeling-defeated.607642/#post-6124997
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-ich-die-faster-from-dry-heat-sunlight.607737/#post-6125953
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-velvet-outbreak.607537/#post-6124992
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/is-this-ich.606747/#post-6118780
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/is-this-ich.606747/#post-6118780
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/naso-tang-not-eating.607398/#post-6122571
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sick-foxface.606383/page-2#post-6118487
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-confirmation.608030/#post-6126622

QT is not easily 100% accomplished. It appears by all the QT failure threads most people do not QT properly.

That's probably true, but you are literally posting this in a thread with a "plop and drop" meme and hoards of people suggesting there is no need to quarantine and then wondering why people don't quarantine "correctly". Where would one go to get information on quarantine? Certainly not your LFS, they'd rather you come back to buy the $12 bottle of "kich-ich" in two weeks. If a new hobbyist comes here, it seems they are more than likely be advised not to bother to quarantine given the discussions I've seen.
 
What do you all think about this being thrown back at importers and vendors - should they be doing better to supply fish that aren't sick?

I think it is long over due. The supply chain needs to evolve and it should start just like you hinted at with the importers and vendors. Collection source, holding facility, preparation for shipment, arrival, acclimation holding and observation, then moved to sales channel. From there it is package and shipping preparation to consumer or retailer.

Retailer again received, acclimates, moves to observation tanks, then resell tanks. Why this supply chain isn't worked out or improved is beyond me in this day and age. The world moves a metric done of crap around the world daily this shouldn't be treated like rocket science. The only thing in the way that I can see, at least two areas, is time is money at the collection and retail space, and price.
 

To be devils advocate here you are not seeing threads with regards to those following whatever method they use and having success.

What I know is that things change when money or jobs are at stake with regards to putting in place procedures that mitigate risk. For example those that have large aquariums with expensive fish and corals. I'm talking about the collectors here buying large colonies and have fish with price tags of $10,000 to $15,000 each. If they introduced something be it velvet or ick we are talking the loss of about $100,000 or more dollars. That is a lot say compared to someone with a couple hundred dollars with of live stock.

No, we shouldn't treat fish like commodities but this is a real data point and fact. No more than say what a public aquarium goes through with their displays. They are not just going to introduce a fish or coral into their ecosystem that could potentially knock out their current live stock.
 
A few comments back a member commented that in the earlier days, like in the 80s, aquarist didn't bother QTing fish because these outbreaks like ich just never happened.
Is it safe to assume that these diseases are occurring because of the vast introduction of QTing?
It is known that keeping any organism free of pathogens weakens their immune system. And the opposite strengthens the immune system. That's no longer debatable, it's proven science.
I understand the concerns of both methods, for and against them.
I don't see people who dont QT as being lazy or irresponsible. It is actually a goal I am trying to achieve down the road.
Healthy fish, in my opinion, is not disease free. It's a strong immune system. I don't consider myself experienced enough to work towards this goal... yet. So I'm QTing now to try to eliminate as many pathogens for a Healthy Tank and keep fish alive, regardless of their immune system. But to me, this sounds like a time bomb waiting to go off. Thats why I'm working towards Not having to QT to have stronger Fish.
 
A few comments back a member commented that in the earlier days, like in the 80s, aquarist didn't bother QTing fish because these outbreaks like ich just never happened.
Is it safe to assume that these diseases are occurring because of the vast introduction of QTing?
It is known that keeping any organism free of pathogens weakens their immune system. And the opposite strengthens the immune system. That's no longer debatable, it's proven science.
I understand the concerns of both methods, for and against them.
I don't see people who dont QT as being lazy or irresponsible. It is actually a goal I am trying to achieve down the road.
Healthy fish, in my opinion, is not disease free. It's a strong immune system. I don't consider myself experienced enough to work towards this goal... yet. So I'm QTing now to try to eliminate as many pathogens for a Healthy Tank and keep fish alive, regardless of their immune system. But to me, this sounds like a time bomb waiting to go off. Thats why I'm working towards Not having to QT to have stronger Fish.
Ich, velvet and flukes are not pathogens they are parasites. No different then a cat left untreated with fleas or ticks won't become immune to them.
 
Ticks and fleas make not cats sick at all, however Ich and velvet make fish sick and there is prove of immunity for both this diseases.

Sincerely Lasse
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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