For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[Lasse]

IMO a fish with white pop thats eat have no disease or flagelates inside its stomach and intestinal system, the tiny white pop often seen in newly imported fish is because starvation (because of transport) often make a part of the muscus in the intenstine leave the body

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HawaiianReef]

Ich, velvet and flukes are not pathogens they are parasites. No different then a cat left untreated with fleas or ticks won't become immune to them.

I cant find the thread, but a veteran reefer said he never QTs. Just acclimate. He knows he has ich in the tank. Some new fish get the side effects, but he monitors that. Most fish eventually lose the symptoms.
Then there are others saying some fish are more susceptible to ich and velvet. And testimonials of ich outbreaks but some fish aren't bothered. Cats and dogs get flees and ticks regardless of breed. They don't build an immunity to them.

 

[Lasse]

What do you all think about this being thrown back at importers and vendors - should they be doing better to supply fish that aren't sick?

Around 20 years ago - OFI (Ornamental Fish International) and other create a certification protocol named MAC (Marine Aquarium Council) but I think it disappear around 2011 - 2012. However, OFI still exist and have produced some literature that everyone in the business should read and apply IMO - and their advises do not include chemichal prophylactic methods.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

I keep the fish healthy and immune by feeding live or fresh whole animals a few times a week.

 

[reaper0268]

I try and pick reliable sources. How well do you trust your supplier?

Minor issues have always been resolved.

 

[Kmsutows]

A few comments back a member commented that in the earlier days, like in the 80s, aquarist didn't bother QTing fish because these outbreaks like ich just never happened.
Is it safe to assume that these diseases are occurring because of the vast introduction of QTing?
It is known that keeping any organism free of pathogens weakens their immune system. And the opposite strengthens the immune system. That's no longer debatable, it's proven science.
I understand the concerns of both methods, for and against them.
I don't see people who dont QT as being lazy or irresponsible. It is actually a goal I am trying to achieve down the road.
Healthy fish, in my opinion, is not disease free. It's a strong immune system. I don't consider myself experienced enough to work towards this goal... yet. So I'm QTing now to try to eliminate as many pathogens for a Healthy Tank and keep fish alive, regardless of their immune system. But to me, this sounds like a time bomb waiting to go off. Thats why I'm working towards Not having to QT to have stronger Fish.

You can accomplish this by feeding healthy foods very often and using a UV at night or on occasion or as needed.

 

[HawaiianReef]

You can accomplish this by feeding healthy foods very often and using a UV at night or on occasion or as needed.

I stated earlier I've only got a few years experience, so I have a lot of reading ahead.
Is there any additives I should be adding to my fishes diet? Better yet, are there any sources to read that you can recommend?

 

[Paul Sands]

Today – it looks like the word QT is a synonym for chemical prophylactic treatment.

Its not me sliding around with unprecise terms - I have ben clear lik crystal what I mean - on the other hand - you have been slipped around like people do after a night in the town.

The first quote (buried in an enormous wordy response) you admit that when people today say “quarantine” you just assume everyone means “prophylactic treatment” even if it’s not actually what we mean. Who’s being imprecise?

It’s very difficult to have a conversation when you are hearing something that isn’t being said because you make a wild assumption like “quarantine” actually means “prophylactic treatment” and no one knows that you’ve made this assumption because absolutely no one is probably *really* reading any of these posts with that much detail.

We actually all agree mostly on the same things with slightly different methods. Well, that may be going too far, but it’s the thought that counts.

 

[Punchanello]

'Mitigation' involves understanding the risk and putting measures in place to minimise it. I see a lot of people who claim to be mitigating risk, when in fact they are performing rituals which put them at ease that have no impact on risk. I have done this too.

 

[Lasse]

The first quote (buried in an enormous wordy response) you admit that when people today say “quarantine” you just assume everyone means “prophylactic treatment” even if it’s not actually what we mean. Who’s being imprecise?

It’s very difficult to have a conversation when you are hearing something that isn’t being said because you make a wild assumption like “quarantine” actually means “prophylactic treatment” and no one knows that you’ve made this assumption because absolutely no one is probably *really* reading any of these posts with that much detail.

We actually all agree mostly on the same things with slightly different methods. Well, that may be going too far, but it’s the thought that counts.

Very big words from a guy that use false quotes in a conversation (#84 in this thread, the real post is in #75 in this thread and my answer is in post #96) And who is we? Are you not alone in your pants? And I´m not hearing anything here on the other side of the Atlantic - but I read some thrash dumping on people that not like your standpoint.

If I read through the stickies in the disease forum - at least I get the impression that QT in the R2R way is recommended is to use chemical prophylactic treatment. However - it has been a small change since @Brew12 ´s nutrient thread gets sticky. Interesting in this thread is post #9. I have read many diseases thread when people have been both bassed for not use, and hence recommended, the full cocktail of chemical prophylactic treatments with the word - you must QT. What I and others have try to do is to reclaim the word QT in its orginal meaning - try to show that there is other type of QT than a full chemical warefare.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

'Mitigation' involves understanding the risk and putting measures in place to minimise it. I see a lot of people who claim to be mitigating risk, when in fact they are performing rituals which put them at ease that have no impact on risk. I have done this too.

Please - if you post an example of what you mean - it is much easier to understand what you want to say. I do not understand if you mean that I or others that do not use full chemical prophylactic QT have rituals or if it those that recommend this FCPQT that have rituals.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Punchanello]

Please - if you post an example of what you mean - it is much easier to understand what you want to say. I do not understand if you mean that I or others that do not use full chemical prophylactic QT have rituals or if it those that recommend this FCPQT that have rituals.

Sincerely Lasse

My comment wasn't directed at you. Just a general observation. IMO, being reassured by an LFS, picking a 'healthy looking' fish or feeding garlic to supposedly boost the fish's immune system are not mitigation. They are denial and rituals that reassure the fish keeper but ignore the science and reality of the trade.

Personally I do quarantine prophylactically but would prefer to observe and treat only when needed. Unfortunately I have missed disease before and paid the price so I am not confident in doing this yet.

 

[reaper0268]

Around 20 years ago - OFI (Ornamental Fish International) and other create a certification protocol named MAC (Marine Aquarium Council) but I think it disappear around 2011 - 2012. However, OFI still exist and have produced some literature that everyone in the business should read and apply IMO - and their advises do not include chemichal prophylactic methods.

Sincerely Lasse

Liveaquaria still uses MAC.

 

[Paul Sands]

Very big words from a guy that use false quotes in a conversation (#84 in this thread, the real post is in #75 in this thread and my answer is in post #96) And who is we? Are you not alone in your pants? And I´m not hearing anything here on the other side of the Atlantic - but I read some thrash dumping on people that not like your standpoint.

If I read through the stickies in the disease forum - at least I get the impression that QT in the R2R way is recommended is to use chemical prophylactic treatment. However - it has been a small change since @Brew12 ´s nutrient thread gets sticky. Interesting in this thread is post #9. I have read many diseases thread when people have been both bassed for not use, and hence recommended, the full cocktail of chemical prophylactic treatments with the word - you must QT. What I and others have try to do is to reclaim the word QT in its orginal meaning - try to show that there is other type of QT than a full chemical warefare.

Sincerely Lasse

Not sure what you mean by false quotes. I just use the quote button here. I’ve never purposefully misquoted someone.

Again, if your prejudice is that anyone that quarantines actually means they prophylactically treat, them that’s your problem. It’s clearly your personal crusade. You are here arguing with people because you aren’t listening but rather projecting your prejudice onto what they are *actually* saying.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Guys want to get back to the task at hand.

 

[Snitch]

100% completely honest answer here:

I've QT'd fish before, but I don't think I've ever QT'd corals or inverts or rock or anything like that. I've rolled the dice many, many times and more often than not I get lucky. I've been nailed with ich, red bugs, pyrams, flatworms, all kinds of random nuisance algae too, so I understand what I get into. Now, that said, I have / will QT certain fish like certain tangs - but to be honest, I don't really keep those fish anymore, my systems tend to stay small, so I tend to keep the typical smaller reef fish that I enjoy and that I consider to be hardier.

As for corals and clams, I will thoroughly inspect frags for flatworm bites, eggs, red bugs, pyrams, etc and I always place new frags on the bottom for a couple of weeks anyway for an adjustment period and decide where I want to put them. Usually, if something's going to happen, it happens within the first couple of weeks anyway.

 

[Lasse]

IMO, being reassured by an LFS, picking a 'healthy looking' fish or feeding garlic to supposedly boost the fish's immune system are not mitigation. They are denial and rituals that reassure the fish keeper but ignore the science and reality of the trade.

For me - not to pick a fish with disease symptoms (the other side of picking healthy looking fish) is the first step of mitigation regardless if you QT or not.

The boosting of immunesystems with different natural occuring substances (including garlic) has become more and more important and get more and more scientific backup. This link as an example

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

As I understand - Steinhart does not use chemical prothylactic treatment @Thales - correct me if I´m wrong

Sincerely Lasse

There are articles - describing cryptocaryon outbreaks near the 'output' from the Steinhart Aquarium - (in wild fishes) - the thought - since it was only in tide pools near the effluent of the aquarium - that the cause was Cryptocaryon from the aquarium itself.

 

[MnFish1]

Wow, an English lesson too! I hope this was not a stab at a members poor English due to being in another part of the world because that would be very poor taste and just discredit your points you've been trying to make.

I thought my English was always pretty good? Otherwise I havent noticed any poor English here...

 

[MnFish1]

General comment: Here's a list of the people battling ich, velvet, flukes, black ich, etc. on r2r just this weekend. I'm sure I've missed a few. I *think* they were all people that didn't bother to quarantine their fish except for one who quarantined and treated and the fish developed ich from the tank. A few of these folks are so defeated that they are leaving or contemplating leaving the hobby entirely.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-in-the-tank-what-do-i-do.607563/
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/feeling-defeated.607642/#post-6124997
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/will-ich-die-faster-from-dry-heat-sunlight.607737/#post-6125953
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-velvet-outbreak.607537/#post-6124992
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/is-this-ich.606747/#post-6118780
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/is-this-ich.606747/#post-6118780
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/naso-tang-not-eating.607398/#post-6122571
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sick-foxface.606383/page-2#post-6118487
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-confirmation.608030/#post-6126622

Are you serious?