For those that don't quarantine fish or corals.....mitigation?

[MnFish1]

Ich, velvet and flukes are not pathogens they are parasites. No different then a cat left untreated with fleas or ticks won't become immune to them.

Sorry if this seems harsh. Not all parasites are pathogens - but some parasites are pathogens (take malaria) and some parasites become pathogens under certain conditions....

 

[MnFish1]

'Mitigation' involves understanding the risk and putting measures in place to minimise it. I see a lot of people who claim to be mitigating risk, when in fact they are performing rituals which put them at ease that have no impact on risk. I have done this too.

Care to expand on what those rituals that people are doing that are not mitigating risk? Because this post can be taken 1000 different ways

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure what you mean by false quotes. I just use the quote button here. I’ve never purposefully misquoted someone.

Again, if your prejudice is that anyone that quarantines actually means they prophylactically treat, them that’s your problem. It’s clearly your personal crusade. You are here arguing with people because you aren’t listening but rather projecting your prejudice onto what they are *actually* saying.

Funny - I think I even remember the quote - something about someone not liking @Lasse but then removing an entire paragraph in-between where the person said he/she was joking. @Lasse called you on it.

 

[Paul Sands]

Funny - I think I even remember the quote - something about someone not liking @Lasse but then removing an entire paragraph in-between where the person said he/she was joking. @Lasse called you on it.

I already posted that this was an accident and said it could be deleted. Which was done already by a mod.

 

[SMB]

IMO a fish with white pop thats eat have no disease or flagelates inside its stomach and intestinal system, the tiny white pop often seen in newly imported fish is because starvation (because of transport) often make a part of the muscus in the intenstine leave the body

Sincerely Lasse

I couldn't agree more. So many posts about new fish with stringy poops. Everybody wants to treat these fish right away. As above, a fish purged for shipment and not settled enough at the LFS to eat, will often have stringy poops for days until the gut gets repopulated with normal flora.
If the fish starts eating well and over a period of time is not gaining weight and has abnormal poops, then that might lead to treatment. But microscopic exam of the feces is the best way to be sure.
How many following this thread have LFS with a microscope that offers exams of pathogens?

 

[Paul B]

This is true and one of the biggest losses of fish, IMO especially if a fish in that condition comes in and is quarantined without the proper bacteria in it's food to re populate it's gut.

 

[Lasse]

I couldn't agree more. So many posts about new fish with stringy poops. Everybody wants to treat these fish right away. As above, a fish purged for shipment and not settled enough at the LFS to eat, will often have stringy poops for days until the gut gets repopulated with normal flora.
If the fish starts eating well and over a period of time is not gaining weight and has abnormal poops, then that might lead to treatment. But microscopic exam of the feces is the best way to be sure.
How many following this thread have LFS with a microscope that offers exams of pathogens?

This is true and one of the biggest losses of fish, IMO especially if a fish in that condition comes in and is quarantined without the proper bacteria in it's food to re populate it's gut.

I just provide an article about this - but it got into a thread instead Are really stringy white poops a sign of internal parasites or is it a myth?



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lowell Lemon]

What do you all think about this being thrown back at importers and vendors - should they be doing better to supply fish that aren't sick?

In my experience they are constrained by economics just like the retailer....so they are not in the position to hold and QT due to volume and price pressure from the consumer. System design has much to do with their success as well as the continued success of the retailer. Most people are unable or unwilling to pay anymore than the lowest price to obtain their fish and inverts. So the only way to keep cost down is volume and turn over.

 

[HawaiianReef]

In my experience they are constrained by economics just like the retailer....so they are not in the position to hold and QT due to volume and price pressure from the consumer. System design has much to do with their success as well as the continued success of the retailer. Most people are unable or unwilling to pay anymore than the lowest price to obtain their fish and inverts. So the only way to keep cost down is volume and turn over.

Im sorry for my ignorance, this may be a stupid question: aren't all the fish in a somewhat state of QT? And in a fish store they are usually held seperate tanks being monitored.
I also read somewhere (in a forum) that almost all retailers are medicating their fish in one form or another to prevent losses.
Personally I wouldn't want to buy a fish that is being treated with chemicals in anyway. I'm thinking if they are constantly swimming in treated water, they'll be more prone to sickness once they're removed from it. I have no basis for this, other than my own interpretation and as I said earlier, I am quite ignorant about these matters relative to others here in this discussion.

 

[HawaiianReef]

When corals are dipped in insecticides like Bayer, does the insecticides kill off parasites and/or pathogens like ich, velvet and brook?

 

[Viking_Reefing]

When corals are dipped in insecticides like Bayer, does the insecticides kill off parasites and/or pathogens like ich, velvet and brook?

No, to my knowledge it dose not, at least not in any meaningful capacity.

 

[HawaiianReef]

No, to my knowledge it dose not, at least not in any meaningful capacity.

If not, would it be wise to QT the corals in a fallow tank for 76 days as you do when a tank does have these?

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Wassup @HawaiianReef

Don’t be sorry for ever asking a question and it is not ignorant. I said 785,372 times in my short term here, every question is a good one and never stupid or be afraid to ask.

Your question helps others like me also. The bayer dip is used as a guard against reef bugs/ invaders that attack coral. I am not sure about things like ich so it’s a good question for my knowledge as well.


Fish really are never QT by big wholesalers. They may be in seperate tanks but there are usually plumbed together into groups. Individual filtration would no be feasible. So theoretically a sock fosh and healthy can be in same water but different tanks. Some vendors do run lower salinity or low levels of copper. It masks or suppresses symptoms sometimes.

Great point preferring to fish not exposed to some form of med along the chain. It comes down to the vendor and the final sales point. What we can do best as consumers is give the best care possible once we get them. The things you do in the first few days can greatly increase or reduce its odds.

Keep asking any question and you will be successful

 

[MnFish1]

When corals are dipped in insecticides like Bayer, does the insecticides kill off parasites and/or pathogens like ich, velvet and brook?

If by some miracle you got a bit of free swimming ci - perhaps - encysted - I dont think so.

 

[MnFish1]

Im sorry for my ignorance, this may be a stupid question: aren't all the fish in a somewhat state of QT? And in a fish store they are usually held seperate tanks being monitored.
I also read somewhere (in a forum) that almost all retailers are medicating their fish in one form or another to prevent losses.
Personally I wouldn't want to buy a fish that is being treated with chemicals in anyway. I'm thinking if they are constantly swimming in treated water, they'll be more prone to sickness once they're removed from it. I have no basis for this, other than my own interpretation and as I said earlier, I am quite ignorant about these matters relative to others here in this discussion.

My LFS does not medicate fish unless they have symptoms.
I know Petco does not use medications.
Every question is a good question

 

[MnFish1]

If not, would it be wise to QT the corals in a fallow tank for 76 days as you do when a tank does have these?

So - the key is - check with your LSF - or where the corals are being bought. If there are no fish - in the tank for xxx days you can subtract xxx days from 76 days fallow

 

[Oldreefer44]

I'm not going to jinx myself by telling you that in my 45 years in the hobby I have never quarantined anything (mostly due to time and space limitations) and have never had a disease outbreak.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

I'm not going to jinx myself by telling you that in my 45 years in the hobby I have never quarantined anything (mostly due to time and space limitations) and have never had a disease outbreak.

I don’t think you jinxed yourself. Obviously what you are doing works, no reason to fail now.

I never did qt either. There has been some great posts about those that don’t qt and how they make it work. I always look for takeaway to incorporate into my routine.

Could I intrude upon you to give an insight into your system. My first tank started in the 80s and since then I have only been hit once with one bad velvet outbreak 7 years ago. I do the fresh foods, water quality, and suitable environment approach. I really haven’t added many fish over the years though either. My tangs are approaching 11. Sound like yours may be a bit more

I see housing as as important as food. Not just water quality but the way it is set up to replicate a more natural environment.

Any way, is there one aspect more than others you think makes a difference? Thanks

 

[Oldreefer44]

IMO, it is all about water quality and stability. I have had tanks with and without Skimmers, both were successful. Cheap lights and expensive lights, both were successful. The latest trends in equipment and old used, behind the times equipment; both successful. The one constant in with all of them was stable water parameters close to recommended specs. Whenever I ran into trouble which was usually an algae or flatworm outbreak, it was because something was out of balance. To me it is all about patience and water quality. As far as quarantining a fish etc. I believe that, as with humans, most are disease resistant if healthy so anything brought in has little chance of infecting others. Also, am very careful who I buy from as IMO, quality has suffered as of late.

 

[Jase4224]

When I saw the title of this thread I was very interested as I’m not in a position to QT my fish in a separate system where I can treat. Unfortunately the thread has turned into a back and forth debate that, whilst interesting, does not necessarily belong here so please if you are advocating QT can you please start a new thread. This thread is about NOT using QT.

My LFS does QT and make sure fish are healthy and eating though. They also collect their own fish directly from the ocean (West Oz).

So since I’m not going to QT I have some ideas for mitigation:
1. I have set up with fresh LR
2. Will be using mostly NSW
3. I will be collecting sea lettuce and mussels from the ocean to feed fresh to my fish weekly (keep fresh in the sump)
4. Feed the highest quality pellets
5. Keep water quality as if for SPS at all times regardless. The idea that water quality is not as important for fish as for SPS is not good practice IMO
6. My fish will be in an observation tank that sits inside the display, allowing old fish to view and familiarise as well as the new fish can get used to the same water and I can remove easily if needed. This would also be beneficial is scent is important too.

With my previous tanks I have always had success just acclimating and putting straight in. I then tried QT because I felt it would be better practice just in case (using the Advanced Aquarist method) and all of these fish fell ill so I’m not keen on this. I’m not against it for others, whatever works for you.

I would appreciate it if people would critique and provide feedback for my above listed ‘methods for attempting to mitigate disease through strengthening the immune system’.

Cheers