Freaked out about QT

[Matt Miller]

I would never trust a LFS to properly QT that wasn’t one that specializes in it.

They often run subtheraputic copper and probably don’t even treat for brook. It’s also easy to cross contaminate if you have tons of tanks in a store.

If you want to skip your own QT.. use dr reef or TSM or such. QT is their specialty.

I was waiting to hear from them about how soon they can get me fish, but I am torn with spending another$50/fish for qt. That's kinda how I got back to worrying about doing it myself.

Now I'm back to spending another$100 for supplies and just stressing lol.

 

[davidcalgary29]

Thanks for the summary and perspective, I really appreciate it!

I guess my biggest issues with QT procedure is the following:

1. The way I understood it is that you really should be QT'ing everything (including corals, inverts) for 76 days. Meaning you need to have 1 QT for fish and 1 QT for inverts and corals. Also, you really need to pay attention to not cross contaminate. So either you have 2 sets of some tools/equipment or you wash and dry things constantly. I think my issue with this is (as the OP is concerned about) is it is a LOT of work and a lot of extra equipment. You just went from 1 tank to 3 tanks.
   
   
2. My personal experience when I started was I lost a lot of fish due to ich and bacterial disease. Then I started doing QT procedure to a T (pun intended). However, I still had the same amount of losses. Its just this time they seem to be dying from stress.

I did more research and talked to more people and have started purchasing fish from a different LFS where they look much healthier and I've had much greater success.

I agree that QT procedure is like a recipe book that is easier to follow to replicate success. Whereas trying to do it a 'different' way such as ich management is more of an 'art' with many different variables that can affect success. Many of which we are still not sure of.

I'm contemplating an upgrade in the future and I still haven't decided on which approach I'll go with for the future. I'm constantly trying to read/discuss with others. Thank you again for your insight!

Over the weekend I bought an acan frag and put it in directly in my display. Yes, against my own standard practice. The frag melted overnight and nuked my tank, resulting in a cloudy, gross mess and the probable death of my duncan frag, a 100% water change, needless doubting of chemipure, needless fussing, yada yada yada. And I HAD a 5g QT set up (in which I put some mushroom frags (!!!). The mushrooms survived. Live and learn, David...

Also: a zoo frag that I purchased had bubble algae on it. I'm glad that I didn't put that in the display...

 

[Tamberav]

Do you guys systematically treat any new fish, regardless of it's state?

If it's active, eating well, and does not show any physical sign of disease, would you still medicate?

I did not used to treat fish unless they showed signs in QT but I am now going to put fish into what is basically a 25 'mini display tank' to de-stress and feed and settle for a few weeks (they will get a peroxide bath first). If they look good, I will hybrid TTM all incoming fish.

This is prep for an upgrade. I like hybrid TTM as far as not exposing fish to copper but it is a lot more work and salt.

 

[Tamberav]

Thanks for the summary and perspective, I really appreciate it!

I guess my biggest issues with QT procedure is the following:

1. The way I understood it is that you really should be QT'ing everything (including corals, inverts) for 76 days. Meaning you need to have 1 QT for fish and 1 QT for inverts and corals. Also, you really need to pay attention to not cross contaminate. So either you have 2 sets of some tools/equipment or you wash and dry things constantly. I think my issue with this is (as the OP is concerned about) is it is a LOT of work and a lot of extra equipment. You just went from 1 tank to 3 tanks.
   
   
2. My personal experience when I started was I lost a lot of fish due to ich and bacterial disease. Then I started doing QT procedure to a T (pun intended). However, I still had the same amount of losses. Its just this time they seem to be dying from stress.

I did more research and talked to more people and have started purchasing fish from a different LFS where they look much healthier and I've had much greater success.

I agree that QT procedure is like a recipe book that is easier to follow to replicate success. Whereas trying to do it a 'different' way such as ich management is more of an 'art' with many different variables that can affect success. Many of which we are still not sure of.

I'm contemplating an upgrade in the future and I still haven't decided on which approach I'll go with for the future. I'm constantly trying to read/discuss with others. Thank you again for your insight!

it is now being said if you run the tank at a higher temp, say 82 degrees (80-82?). You can run the tank fallow 6 weeks due to speeding up the life cycle of the parasite.

Yes, it is a lot of work and space! I can't argue with that.

Some fish do die from stress related issues. I have found the best way to avoid this... is to have another cycled conditioning tank (with live rock or bricks) for them to destress in (give them a dip before they go in to knock off most things). Let them be for a few weeks to eat and settle and THEN start QT in the QT tank.

Yes, that means ANOTHER tank. I use the invert QT for the conditioning tank. I just have to restart fallow in between which is not ideal but saves another tank spot.

I am upgrading as well and basically QTing everything (when I didn't before) as my tank will be larger and I just want to remove that variable and open up room to have a chance of better success with Acanthurus tangs if I want one.

 

[Marco S]

how do you qt inverts

All my inverts go into an Invert QT tank that has been up and running for about 2 years and very established and stable. There is plenty of Algae in the tank and I feed the tank daily and do water changes when needed. They all get acclimated properly and I give snails, (and other inverts with shells} a good scrub before dropping them in and then stay there for 76 days, (usually a bit more). The main concern here is Velvet and Ick since I have 5 expensive Tangs so 76 days with no fish should do the trick. ;Happy

Edit: Yes I do know that Inverts cannot get Velvet or Ich...but they can carry the eggs and those can hatch and infect fish.

Also...I am aware that "eggs" and "hatch" are not the proper words when talking about Velvet and Ich...but I did not feel like Googling it just for a quick post. ;Happy

 

[MnFish1]

Do you guys systematically treat any new fish, regardless of it's state?

If it's active, eating well, and does not show any physical sign of disease, would you still medicate?

I do not - (My LFS treats only disease if it pops up) - and they also make sure that there is no sign of disease, and the fish is eating well, etc

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Do you guys systematically treat any new fish, regardless of it's state?

If it's active, eating well, and does not show any physical sign of disease, would you still medicate?

I don’t. However, I get all my fish from a local LSF that is fairly diligent and where I can observe the fish before purchasing. I wouldn’t buy a fish without being able to see it first.
Serious diseases like velvet seemed to be much less prevalent here in Sweden/Europe than in the states for some reason. Ich is commonplace but is not a problem in a well set up and established tank anyways.

 

[Matt Miller]

All my inverts go into an Invert QT tank that has been up and running for about 2 years and very established and stable. There is plenty of Algae in the tank and I feed the tank daily and do water changes when needed. They all get acclimated properly and I give snails, (and other inverts with shells} a good scrub before dropping them in and then stay there for 76 days, (usually a bit more). The main concern here is Velvet and Ick since I have 5 expensive Tangs so 76 days with no fish should do the trick. ;Happy

Edit: Yes I do know that Inverts cannot get Velvet or Ich...but they can carry the eggs and those can hatch and infect fish.

Also...I am aware that "eggs" and "hatch" are not the proper words when talking about Velvet and Ich...but I did not feel like Googling it just for a quick post. ;Happy

There's no way I can set up 2 QT's but, I don't plan on adding any more fish after the 2 clowns.

Is it possible to do the clowns then qt crabs, snails and nems in same tank?

 

[MnFish1]

There's no way I can set up 2 QT's but, I don't plan on adding any more fish after the 2 clowns.

Is it possible to do the clowns then qt crabs, snails and nems in same tank?

I think you might be overanalyzing this a bit... Since you asked though - many people would say adding 'nems' to a new tank is a recipe for disaster and they shouldn't need to be quarantined. Most snails and crabs (depending on the supplier) - do not need to be QT'd - unless they were kept with fish - or were freshly imported - and even then - I would think it would be extremely rare for Ich or Velvet to be transmitted by a wild snail anyway. So - I would set up your QT (or have the LFS do it) - buy your crabs and snails - put them in your main tank - while you do the QT for the clowns. After the tank is doing well - and all is stable - add the 'nems' which likely do not need QT

 

[Matt Miller]

I think you might be overanalyzing this a bit... Since you asked though - many people would say adding 'nems' to a new tank is a recipe for disaster and they shouldn't need to be quarantined. Most snails and crabs (depending on the supplier) - do not need to be QT'd - unless they were kept with fish - or were freshly imported - and even then - I would think it would be extremely rare for Ich or Velvet to be transmitted by a wild snail anyway. So - I would set up your QT (or have the LFS do it) - buy your crabs and snails - put them in your main tank - while you do the QT for the clowns. After the tank is doing well - and all is stable - add the 'nems' which likely do not need QT

Thank you for answering that, and I agree completely. I have too much time between steps in this and I really don't want to mess it up.

This is really trying my patience, but I feel like I'm doing good so far. I've gone over budget, of course, and now I can't makeup my mind where to get the fish. So I spend my days worrying about the next step, and trying to research here.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for answering that, and I agree completely. I have too much time between steps in this and I really don't want to mess it up.

This is really trying my patience, but I feel like I'm doing good so far. I've gone over budget, of course, and now I can't makeup my mind where to get the fish. So I spend my days worrying about the next step, and trying to research here.

I sent you a PM... EDIT - I take that back - you cant accept PM's

 

[Tcook]

and now I can't makeup my mind where to get the fish. So I spend my days worrying about the next step, and trying to research here.

I have purchased 8 fish from TSM and couldn't be happier. Try them for just one or two fish. See what you think.

 

[Marco S]

My take on it is that if you are going to QT, you need to QT EVERYTHING wet that goes into your tank. Even if there is only a 0.01% chance of getting something from a snail or nem...I am not taking that chance. If you spent all the time, effort and money I have over the last few years on QT and then decide not to QT a snail and end up with Ich you will have wasted all that work and money. I am not big on wasting my time or money so I QT EVERYTHING. ;Happy

That being said, I am not against managing a tank without QT, I am just saying if you are going to QT you might as well do it right.

 

[Marco S]

There's no way I can set up 2 QT's but, I don't plan on adding any more fish after the 2 clowns.

Is it possible to do the clowns then qt crabs, snails and nems in same tank?

At one point I had 5 QT tanks going at the same time and it got really complicated keeping up and keeping all equipment separate. But if you can only do one tank then doing the inverts after the fish is fine as long as you stick to the 76 days without fish that should cover the lifecycle of Ich and Velvet. You will need to clean out the tank really well between uses since you will use Copper for the fish and that will kill your inverts and coral though.

The great thing about having a separate coral and or invert QT is that you never have to clean out the tank before adding new batches of inverts or coral since you don't use any meds and you can also have rock and sand and it becomes just another tank after a while. You do have to maintain it and do water changes and all, but my Invert QT is only 20 gallons and the same for my coral QT so a small water change every week for each is only like 10 minutes out of my life so it works for me.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

My take on it is that if you are going to QT, you need to QT EVERYTHING wet that goes into your tank. Even if there is only a 0.01% chance of getting something from a snail or nem...I am not taking that chance. If you spent all the time, effort and money I have over the last few years on QT and then decide not to QT a snail and end up with Ich you will have wasted all that work and money. I am not big on wasting my time or money so I QT EVERYTHING. ;Happy

That being said, I am not against managing a tank without QT, I am just saying if you are going to QT you might as well do it right.

Completely agree. No real point in doing it if you’re not going to do it properly.

My guess is that it can also backfire if you’ve kept out all pathogens for a significant period of time by passing fish through QT and something makes it to the tank on a snail or something like that. Then the fish will have no build up of natural resistance.

 

[Matt Miller]

I have purchased 8 fish from TSM and couldn't be happier. Try them for just one or two fish. See what you think.

The cost for me to finish getting QT ready for fish is about what it costs to have them do it for me so I'm about to just let them do it for me and I can just do snails and rest without worrying about copper.

I have a shrimp and 4 snails in the DT already, does that mean I need to wait 76 days to get the fish now??

This is too stressful for such a small tank that was supposed to be easy.

 

[MnFish1]

Now I got the PM to work once you sent one to me.

 

[Marco S]

The cost for me to finish getting QT ready for fish is about what it costs to have them do it for me so I'm about to just let them do it for me and I can just do snails and rest without worrying about copper.

I have a shrimp and 4 snails in the DT already, does that mean I need to wait 76 days to get the fish now??

This is too stressful for such a small tank that was supposed to be easy.

To be honest, If I had heard about TSM before I started doing my own QT, I would have went with them and called it a day. But on the other hand...I have bought a few fish from the Divers Den, (who does their own QT) and ALL of them either had Ich and or Velvet and or Urinema and or Flukes on arrival and a couple of them died shortly after putting them in copper.

To answer your question though, yes keep the tank fishless for 76 days with what you have already.

If it is too stressful then maybe you should try not doing any QT and do some research on what that entails. I am sure some of the people on here that do not QT can help you get started.

Edit: I figured I should add that there are a lot of people who have extremely successful tanks that do not QT. The only reason I chose to QT was because I wanted several Tangs and the specific ones that everyone was saying were Ich magnets. I wanted to eliminate any chance of Ich right off the bat to give me a better chance at succeeding in this hobby. if it were not for the Tangs, I may have chosen not to QT and I would have saved a lot of time and money. So whatever you choose just do your research and make sure you reach out here if you have any questions.

 

[Matt Miller]

To be honest, If I had heard about TSM before I started doing my own QT, I would have went with them and called it a day. But on the other hand...I have bought a few fish from the Divers Den, (who does their own QT) and ALL of them either had Ich and or Velvet and or Urinema and or Flukes on arrival and a couple of them died shortly after putting them in copper.

To answer your question though, yes keep the tank fishless for 76 days with what you have already.

If it is too stressful then maybe you should try not doing any QT and do some research on what that entails. I am sure some of the people on here that do not QT can help you get started.

Edit: I figured I should add that there are a lot of people who have extremely successful tanks that do not QT. The only reason I chose to QT was because I wanted several Tangs and the specific ones that everyone was saying were Ich magnets. I wanted to eliminate any chance of Ich right off the bat to give me a better chance at succeeding in this hobby. if it were not for the Tangs, I may have chosen not to QT and I would have saved a lot of time and money. So whatever you choose just do your research and make sure you reach out here if you have any questions.

I had thought about not quarantining a few times, but I'd rather not risk it. Too many horror stories on here.

I think my kids will be pretty disappointed if I didn't get fish yet. What if I got the rest of my crabs and shrimp and started the 76 days over?

That would get into more favorable weather for shipping the fish and I could rest a little easier for the time being.

 

[Marco S]

I had thought about not quarantining a few times, but I'd rather not risk it. Too many horror stories on here.

I think my kids will be pretty disappointed if I didn't get fish yet. What if I got the rest of my crabs and shrimp and started the 76 days over?

That would get into more favorable weather for shipping the fish and I could rest a little easier for the time being.

I always start the clock over if I decide to add a new invert into my QT because I cannot tell which ones where added when. For coral though, I know exactly which ones were added on what date so I do not reset the clock for the whole tank, but keep a spreadsheet so I know how long each one had been in QT and when to move them.

For you though since they are in your main display already and will not be moving, the clock restarts every time you add a new invert. So I would not start the clock until you have stocked all the inverts you want initially.

On a side note: All my tanks are fully stocked with inverts, but I still keep an invert QT with several Turbo Snails, Nassarius Snails and a conch or shrimp for restocking my tanks at all times so I don't have to wait 76 days when a snail dies. ;Happy