Frog Spawn and other corals slowly dying

MomSaysNo · Dec 9, 2021

Hello Folks,

I have a small GSP, Frog Spawn and two other corals I don't know the names of that seem to be slowly dying.

Salinity 0.026 (refractometer)
Nitrate .5ppm
Nitrite .25
Phosphate .25
Calcium 460
Alkalinity 8.2
PH 8.2
Temp 79.4 - 80 (it fluctuates a bit cause the weather is up and down here. Makes it hard to keep the house at a certain temp.)

The tank is about 4 months old, but doing very well. I even have a blue hippo tang that is thriving.
I have 6 fish
2 Clowns
1 Blue Hippo
1 Pajama Cardinal
1 Goby
1 Royal Gramma

I run a protein skimmer in a sump constantly that is also full of live rock and charcoal in the drain section. UV Sterilizer installed as well.

The tank is 170gal with a 40gal sump and I just did a 50gal water change but nothing seems to be doing any better. I am starting to wonder if the issue is my lighting.. though I've seen these same corals thrive in this lighting a month or two ago. I have a leather that is doing well and a large GSP doing well.. but the small GSP and Frog Spawn are struggling and I cannot figure out why. I've spent several hundred dollars on Hanna instruments recently to check all parameters accurately and everything is within recommended ranges.

I did have a mandarin disappear in the tank a few weeks ago that I am sure if dead. I am waiting on my ammonia instrument to arrive, but the standard color vile test was yellow. I had a large hair algae outbreak during cycling and used some H2O2 to treat, but everything seemed to come back to full health after that.

Does anyone have any idea what might be choking them out?? What am I doing wrong?

MomSaysNo · Dec 11, 2021

Lbrdsoxfan said:
So I'd highly suggest ordering a sock holder to start, and some mesh socks (easier to clean). You need some sort of mechanical filtration, especially for a tank that's as new as yours. I wouldn't be shocked if your sump is a huge detritus trap, thus the ammonia issues.

Eh, imho the copepods can live and thrive but not with those ammonia numbers. I keep about 10 pounds of rock in my sump and rotate a piece in about once a week for the copepods to constantly seed the display. Seemes to work for the wrasses.

So, like an IDIOT, I just discovered that the Hanna Instruments Ammonia tester is ONLY for freshwater. I tested ammonia with my vile/color test and its healthy. I might have around .1 or .15 ammonia at the very most. It didn't make sense that my Blue Hippo could be doing so good in such high ammonia. *Face palm*

A;exr54 · Dec 11, 2021

It looks like your not done with your cycle yet. The tank is not mature enough for those inhabitants.
let it run for a while (several months), do water changes. Get your levels right. Waiting for some coraline to start growing is a good indicator it’s ready.
This can not be rushed. Or you will have loss after loss.

MomSaysNo · Dec 11, 2021

A;exr54 said:
It looks like your not done with your cycle yet. The tank is not mature enough for those inhabitants.
let it run for a while (several months), do water changes. Get your levels right. Waiting for some coraline to start growing is a good indicator it’s ready.
This can not be rushed. Or you will have loss after loss.

Thanks for the heads-up on coraline!

Spare time · Dec 11, 2021

MomSaysNo said:
Unfortunately my sump doesn't have a place for filter socks.. I may need to get creative with some rubberbands... I just ordered some more phosphate down and was planning to try and pick up an incredibly large bottle of TurboStart today but I don't think my LFS has it. Kinda live in the country.

It looked like one could sit where the return pipe is. You could have a rock or something underneath to hold it up.

I am thinking I there may be a testing error on the ammonia kit as 3ppm is very high for fish to be doing ok. If you have any prime or similar, dose that temporarily.

tranceFusion · Dec 11, 2021

MomSaysNo said:
YEs, the guys who sold me the sump told me I wouldn't need to do water changes very often.. LOL. I have a different understanding now. The traces actually weren't too bad. I did dose with Calcium and Carbonate to bring those ranges back to a healthy amount. But I think a water change is still necessary.

Just a heads up, even if you dose, there are many elements in saltwater mix that will be replenished by the water change that we don’t usually test for.

MomSaysNo · Dec 11, 2021

Spare time said:
It looked like one could sit where the return pipe is. You could have a rock or something underneath to hold it up.

I am thinking I there may be a testing error on the ammonia kit as 3ppm is very high for fish to be doing ok. If you have any prime or similar, dose that temporarily.

So the socks I got a while back had draw strings on them.. so I just tied them on the drain pipe and they are staying just fine. Socks installed now! Thank you so much.
Yeah.. I discovered the Ammonia test kit (Hanna Instruments) was for freshwater only.. I tested with my standard test and its fine. Its at .1 to .15ppm at the very highest.

outhouse · Dec 11, 2021

Turn those lights down while your at it. 3w led chips will cook coral at the levels you had. I've heard some terrible advise given to you about such. 20% blue. And 5% white is a good starting point. 100 will kill everything you put in there less SPS. LPS loves low lighting. I'm using 8% blue And 2% white in my 210g tank that is 30 inches deep and growth is crazy fast now.

Dodge Ram · Dec 11, 2021

That tank is barely alive. Too much too fast. Barebones.
Order some real live rock with life in it. It brings all the things needed to start a tank.

MomSaysNo · Dec 11, 2021

outhouse said:
Turn those lights down while your at it. 3w led chips will cook coral at the levels you had. I've heard some terrible advise given to you about such. 20% blue. And 5% white is a good starting point. 100 will kill everything you put in there less SPS. LPS loves low lighting. I'm using 8% blue And 2% white in my 210g tank that is 30 inches deep and growth is crazy fast now.

Thank you for this!

MomSaysNo · Dec 11, 2021

Dodge Ram said:
That tank is barely alive. Too much too fast. Barebones.
Order some real live rock with life in it. It brings all the things needed to start a tank.

Every bit of rock in there is live, including the rock in the sump.

Dodge Ram · Dec 11, 2021

Maybe the UV is killing the beneficial stuff that the rock inhabitants need. Filterfeeders and any of that sort. It is all part of the ecosystem of a reef.

Spare time · Dec 11, 2021

outhouse said:
Turn those lights down while your at it. 3w led chips will cook coral at the levels you had. I've heard some terrible advise given to you about such. 20% blue. And 5% white is a good starting point. 100 will kill everything you put in there less SPS. LPS loves low lighting. I'm using 8% blue And 2% white in my 210g tank that is 30 inches deep and growth is crazy fast now.

He can definitely run them higher than that (at least from my experience with them)

outhouse · Dec 11, 2021

Spare time said:
He can definitely run them higher than that (at least from my experience with them)

Sure, but he already fried them with his current settings, I speak from experience, and I can tell you corals love low light.

He may even with to do a few large water changes, and leave lights out for a few days to combat the dinos.

I have a 210g tank and running similar powered lights at 8% and growth is amazing, at 80% I cooked everything.

outhouse · Dec 11, 2021

8% intensity grew this in 6 months

Dodge Ram · Dec 11, 2021

That is powerful lights.

Spare time · Dec 12, 2021

outhouse said:
Sure, but he already fried them with his current settings, I speak from experience, and I can tell you corals love low light.

He may even with to do a few large water changes, and leave lights out for a few days to combat the dinos.

I have a 210g tank and running similar powered lights at 8% and growth is amazing, at 80% I cooked everything.

I've worked at a store that runs these lights over 8 systems so thats what I am basing it on. I agree that you can definitely overlight corals with them, but I think that he can run them higher than that suggestion.

outhouse · Dec 12, 2021

Spare time said:
but I think that he can run them higher than that suggestion

Comprehension is key. Im not suggesting he runs them like my lights. Im just providing someone an example and that blasting lights all the way max power, is not how you grow coral.

MomSaysNo · Dec 12, 2021

outhouse said:
Comprehension is key. Im not suggesting he runs them like my lights. Im just providing someone an example and that blasting lights all the way max power, is not how you grow coral.

I think @outhouse and @Spare time are both right.. I tested my parameters today and while everything is not IDEAL, the tank does seem to be in fair condition (minus phosphates.) Let me know if you feel otherwise, I am FAR from expert on the chemistry here..

I've seen reviews on the lights I have elsewhere and everyone said the PAR drop off was insane. I had these corals that are struggling higher on my rocks and I think it cooked them. However, the leather and other corals in the sand seem to be doing just fine. My LFS told me Frog Spawns like less flow and less light and I had it right in high flow up by the light..

Here are the current parameters. I started an excel log so I can keep track.

Date	pH	Ammonia	Nitrite (PPB)	Nitrate	Calcium	Alkalinity (dkh)	Salinity	Phosphate	Temp
December 9, 2021	8.2	0.1	0.25?	0.5	460	8.2	1.026	0.25	79.4
December 12, 2021	8.4	0	23.03	0	454	8.2	1.027	0.17	80.2

I think I recorded Nitrite wrong las time.. So disregard that. But its far below 200PPB now. I am keeping a wary eye on the pH and will start dosing to add some Nitrates. I have some more Phosphate Down coming in the mail too so I can get those under control.

After all these comments I am thinking the corals were cooked, phosphates were way too high and also that the tank just wasn't ready for them yet. I probably won't get another Frog Spawn till the tank hits a year or so.

outhouse · Dec 13, 2021

MomSaysNo said:
will start dosing to add some Nitrates.

without a bunch of coral you really dont need to add that. Feeding your fish adds plenty of nitrates, in 30 years i have never dosed extra nitrates. My tank usually pays for itself selling extra coral

MomSaysNo · Dec 13, 2021

outhouse said:
without a bunch of coral you really dont need to add that. Feeding your fish adds plenty of nitrates, in 30 years i have never dosed extra nitrates. My tank usually pays for itself selling extra coral

Ah good to know... then I'll pass for now. Since I started the hobby, this is my first time having nitrates at 0 and I am quite happy about it. LOL