Frogspawn Mesenterial filaments

[Sharkbait19]

Hi,
A few weeks ago, some palys in my tank burst, causing a tankwide crisis, especially with my four frogspawns. I did a water change, and the corals began to look great. Then some palys got punctured again, and things took a big turn for the worst. After another water change, all four frogs began to open well, and then began to implode. Then they all started to excrete these filaments:

Now I know these can mean a few things, from stress to lack of nutrients. Around two weeks ago, I began to feed the corals reef roids. But this is still going on, and if anything getting worse. Is the palytoxin still in the tank?? Would another water change help? I’m running two carbon bags in the filter right now, but am now wondering if this does more harm right now…

 

[Sharkbait19]

Bump

 

[Shirak]

Can't tell anything from your photos

I don't see any mesenterial filaments...

 

[Sharkbait19]

Can't tell anything from your photos

I don't see any mesenterial filaments...

My bad, I'll try to get a more clear picture soon.

 

[Wasabiroot]

The carbon would theoretically help filter the palytoxin out if it's still present. How has your alk stability been?
Also, how does a paly "puncture" or "explode"? Just curious
I don't think the carbon is hurting, but I would check all your parameters.

 

[Sharkbait19]

 

[Sharkbait19]

I did another water change, they began to come back, and are now receding again. I’m not quite sure what’s wrong. Any advice out there?

 

[Shirak]

Have you taken any water testing lately? I don't see a lot of tissue down around the outside of the skeleton like there should be. How long have you had them and do the others look like that also?

 

[Sharkbait19]

Have you taken any water testing lately? I don't see a lot of tissue down around the outside of the skeleton like there should be. How long have you had them and do the others look like that also?

All four frogspawns look like this, some way worse than others. I’ve had two of them for over a year. The other two I got back in November. These are the only corals looking this way, and have been this way every since my palys burst. I’m probably going to get a Red Sea or Salifert test kit because my api is just too unreliable.

What I don’t understand is that they were all starting to really thrive a few weeks ago, then took a massive turn for the worse. I’ve done three water changes since to try and reach stability, and may go for a fourth. The palytoxin is the only problem I can possibly think of.

 

[Shirak]

I agree Api is not reliable, so better test kits will help you get a better picture on what your water parameters are doing over time. Not sure what you mean by palys bursting. Palys don't just explode randomly, but I highly doubt it's palytoxin that is affecting only 4 frogspawn and nothing else in the tank which I would assume includes some fish, inverts and other corals. My point about the tissue on the outside of the skeleton which is present in healthy growing Euphyllia and is not present on the one you have photographed, is whatever has been happening to these corals has been happening for a long while in a long steady decline. To me that usually indicates swinging parameters such as alk, Ca, Mg, NO3, PO4 etc. Could be light or flow but they are pretty adaptable as long as light and flow are at reasonable levels.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I agree Api is not reliable, so better test kits will help you get a better picture on what your water parameters are doing over time. Not sure what you mean by palys bursting. Palys don't just explode randomly, but I highly doubt it's palytoxin that is affecting only 4 frogspawn and nothing else in the tank which I would assume includes some fish, inverts and other corals. My point about the tissue on the outside of the skeleton which is present in healthy growing Euphyllia and is not present on the one you have photographed, is whatever has been happening to these corals has been happening for a long while in a long steady decline. To me that usually indicates swinging parameters such as alk, Ca, Mg, NO3, PO4 etc. Could be light or flow but they are pretty adaptable as long as light and flow are at reasonable levels.

Sorry, I should’ve mentioned that the palys broke from me moving stuff around. That caused pretty much all my zoas and lps to freak out and start melting, but that’s a whole different story. The only ones that never made a full comeback were the frogspawns. They used to cover the skeletons but now they don’t. Is it possible that there is indeed a parameter instability that, after the incident with the palytoxin, is finally affecting the stressed corals??

 

[Shirak]

What were you moving around? I don't think tearing a few palys would have caused it but I dunno... I think it's coincidence or maybe you caused an imbalance by moving stuff. Yes it's possible they were not doing so great and then something pushed them over the edge. I don't see a big white band on the outside either, so I don't think there was a lot of flesh there recently that vanished very quickly. I am still going with a long slow gradual decline to where they are weak and almost to the point of no return. They can often look nice and healthy and puffy even as they are declining in overall health and slowly shrinking in tissue mass.

 

[Shirak]

So regardless of what happened.. it is where we are today. You ran carbon and did a bunch of water changes. Assuming everything is good with parameters.. the frogspawn are clearly in trouble. I think they are at risk for bacteria infection or BJD. The flesh looks funny... I would be looking to dip in antibiotics or iodine or something like that.

 

[Sharkbait19]

So regardless of what happened.. it is where we are today. You ran carbon and did a bunch of water changes. Assuming everything is good with parameters.. the frogspawn are clearly in trouble. I think they are at risk for bacteria infection or BJD. The flesh looks funny... I would be looking to dip in antibiotics or iodine or something like that.

I can definitely try iodine dips to avoid infections. Just to clarify, when I mean crushed a few palys, I pretty much broke an entire colony by accidentally dropping a rock on them. I saw a lot of brown slime enter the water column, and not twenty minutes later things started to melt. One other thing I noticed immediately was the wide open mouths and extended sweepers on all of them-- two weeks ago, I started feeding reef roids. To be honest, so many things happened in the past few weeks, that I wouldn't be surprised that something catalyzed this big change. You do raise a great point however, that something was likely wrong long before these incidents. My purple tip frogspawn, for example, has been doing poorly for months, ever since it was irritated by leather coral overgrowth.

My three biggest theories/concerns are calcium, magnesium, and/or nutrient deficiencies. The first two are mostly a hunch, because both seem crucial to euphyllia growth, and as of recently, my stony coral growth has become quite stagnant. I can't be 100% sure, though, until I pick up a better testing kit, which I will definitely do soon. Nutrient deficiency seems very likely, because this has been a problem for my mushroom corals, acan, and other filter feeders. I have a very small tank, which has been completely overrun by softies like xenia, clove polyps, and especially leather corals. To be honest, this has been the biggest nuisance for nearly the past year. Ever since my leathers have grown in size, I've had more and more lps deaths/unhappiness. Could be coincidental, though.

I think the best answer will come from a water test. That definitely is a must at this point. In fact, I may go to the lfs this weekend, and will not only get a test kit, but may even bring in my water to be tested.

Is there anything else I can do at the moment? Should I feed the frogspawns reefroids? In your opinion, is there a "point of no return" for euphyllia, or do you think there's still a shot of recovery??

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I think your water changes are restoring your numbers in alk. Cal. Mag. Maybe even swinging a little... as u don't mix it the same perfectly everytime. Lol.
Anyways all I can say is let it be.
Lower flow maybe a little if possible. Hope they all bounce back.
D

 

[Sharkbait19]

I think your water changes are restoring your numbers in alk. Cal. Mag.

Should I continue to do water changes, then, or let it be?

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Let it be.
I don't think the iodine dip is a bad idea. Nor was the carbon.
-d

 

[Shirak]

Carbon is supposed to be good if you have leathers and other softies that could release chemicals. Water changes will help with that also. I like to feed my Euphyllia and other LPS, mushrooms etc. My tanks don't have fish or have very few fish. I feed heavily several times a week with a variety of frozen chopped mysis, pellets and powders. Sometimes in the day and sometimes in the night. I do have reef roids but it's not my go too. I find it too fine. I have tried mixing it into a thick paste for target feeding but still prefer something a bit bigger.. The frogspawn seem to eat primarily in the day, at night they tend to be closed up. I find they are slow eaters and pumps need to be off for 20min at least. Food around 1mm in size seems to work for me with these guys.

One thing you can try if a coral is struggling is an amino bath. Some tank water in a container with a little aminos or Coral Restor or some other liquid nutrients and let them have a bath for 20-30min.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Update:
Being left alone, the filaments are gone, they are showing polyp extension, and the flesh is beginning to cover the skeleton. Should I continue with an iodine dip for preventative measures, or should they be left alone? Should I put them in a bath of nutrients like you suggested, @Shirak, or should I simply broadcast feed the tank? I’m a little nervous now to touch anything, and am thinking that I should maybe see if they’ll recover on their own…

 

[Wasabiroot]

Can we see a pic? Sounds promising.