Frustrated with Corals

[prsnlty]

Contrary to what people seem to believe, these animals require some NO3 and PO4 to survive. Without those materials they slowly starve. Exactly like you describe.

Having detectable NO3 and PO4, infact having ample amounts of NO3 and PO4 does not result, by itself, with corals "browning out". That's a factor more with inadequate lighting/spectrum/photoperiod in conjunction with nutrients being available. The zooxanthellae are multiplying in an attempt to gather as much light as they can. In ULNS with lower intensity lighting the corals can't "brown out" because the zooxanthellae population is held in place by lack of available nutrients.

Now if you put them in a tank with high nutrients and high light, they are forced for part of the day into photoremission where they spend most of the time being prevented from photosynthesizing by the coral withholding fuel for the symbiotic algae to prevent an over abbundance of photosynthetic byproducts (which can harm the coral in excessive amounts). The zooxanthellae are prevented from multiplying and causing the coral to brown.

This is my very rudimentary understanding of it anywho, at least a "regurgitation" (good or bad ) of what I've gathered over the years.

From my experience, the rox carbon and gfo can really strip the water clean to the point of too clean. I had stn issues and reducing my carbon and turning gfo offline was my cure.

+1 & +1!

Being too clean can cause what you're experiencing. For two years I had the same problem in my previous tank. My tank was to clean. I was then told that I did not have enough fish poo to feed my corals. So I ordered 32 fish ( I had a large tank) and that solved my problem. You need 'some' no3 & po4.

 

[Pola0502ds]

I have the same problem as other have explained and i have tried to increase my nutrients by adding more fish and more food but i still always end up with zero. I think part of my problem is the cheato i have. I dont run carbon or GFO, just a big ball of cheato. But my point is, with zero nutrients i still get cyano. I dont understand that. I know i have good flow too. Someone once told me that with zero nitrates that can bring on cyano, can someone explain that one to me?

So with adding more fish and feeding more which doesnt aolve the problem, it just grows more cyano, how can i increase nutrients. I was thinking of dosing Brightwells NO3 and PO4??

 

[ohiojeffsreef]

I struggled with SPS at first, and I feel part of the problem is that SPS need a tank that has some age to it. Even now, when I keep a little of everything, I have bad luck with SPS in new tanks. The parameters can be fine, but there is a lot going on behind those numbers that make a difference. The other side of this is they need unchanging water conditions. They absolutely hate any deviation in ALK. Every time there is any hick-up in it I can tell instantly from my SPS. It would be very hard to keep them relying on water changes alone. Dosing is the only way to get the nice even levels. I also started off dosing by hand, every morning and evening. The problem was the deviations between those two doses wasn't all that good either. It wasn't until I invested in dosers that I saw improvement. My readings barely move now. Everything is dead steady all the time. I am not sure you can get that without very good control over temps, ph, dosing, lighting. Take what you think is steady and throw that out the window. In my experience you have to step the stability up to a whole new level to do this. I thought I was steady until a lot of work taught me how steady you can get. I hate to see people leave the hobby, so feel free to contact me, I will help any way I can.

 

[Brock0019]

From my experience, the rox carbon and gfo can really strip the water clean to the point of too clean. I had stn issues and reducing my carbon and turning gfo offline was my cure.

I was just talking with someone about that today. I had a feeling my water was too clean.
Thinking of cutting my carbon reactor in half and removing the GFO and maybe use biopellets?
I do have to clean the glass pretty often. But testing always shows zero phosphates ‍
Really would like to get into SPS, every time I get a stick it browns out.

 

[bif24701]

pH was 8.2-8.3 as I have an airline connected to my skimmer.
Temp was apex controlled 77.7-78.1

No NO3, PO4 readings.

I do use rodi, and change the filters every 6 months or so. Change resin as often as I need to.

I do run GFO and Rox 0.8 carbon. And do not carbon dose.

I am almost dead certain it was the lighting in the 120. I have no idea what the issue was in the frag tank. Used T5 (blue+ and Coral+) and rox 0.8. Maybe the carbon is the issue but my water had a significant yellow tint to it without the carbon.

After the demise in the frag tank, that's when I started to think maybe SPS isn't for me

I see your problem. No NO3 or PO4, that's bad. Try getting a little NO3 with potassium Nitrate start with 1ppm. Also feeding corals isn't a bad idea either. Corals must have nutrition.

 

[DHill6]

I tried running different methods with SPS. GFO, Rox then a Pax Bellum reactor with chaeto. SPS looked bad. Triton original method turned the tank into a park of green. Vibrant cleaned that up. What has worked is feeding the coral more, running only the skimmer partime, using Vibrant Balance to add P04 and N03, KZ coral booster which has brought coral back from near death. Triton for other methods at a very low dose via dosers, keeping the elements supplied. I use TMPro salt. The only algae is a nice lavender color coralline. In this case the tank was too clean. Radios Pro G4 and mp40s handle the lighting and flow.

 

[Rick.45cal]

I have the same problem as other have explained and i have tried to increase my nutrients by adding more fish and more food but i still always end up with zero. I think part of my problem is the cheato i have. I dont run carbon or GFO, just a big ball of cheato. But my point is, with zero nutrients i still get cyano. I dont understand that. I know i have good flow too. Someone once told me that with zero nitrates that can bring on cyano, can someone explain that one to me?

So with adding more fish and feeding more which doesnt aolve the problem, it just grows more cyano, how can i increase nutrients. I was thinking of dosing Brightwells NO3 and PO4??

I dose spectracide stump remover and Brightwell's neophos when I want to boost things a bit! My corals seem to love it. I'm looking forward to getting a few more fish through QT to help keep me from having to dose as much. (I have a light fish load at the moment).

 

[pdiehm]

Will try these recommendations once I beat the Dino's. Until they are gone I need to run the carbon, skimmer and GFO.

But once they are gone, maybe I will do the following:

Run skimmer 12 hours instead of 24.
Run carbon and GFO 1 or 2 days instead of 7.
Adding Potassium Nitrate starting at 1ppm (once a week? Daily)

And getting more fish in there! The 2 clowns and the wrasse don't add much bioload in a big tank like that.

Plan is to add at least another 6-8 fish

I am already in the process of working out a way to mount T5's in my canopy and getting rid of the LED's. I still think with me being a novice a 4 bulb fixture at the right intensity and spectrum that is on and off is better for me.

 

[ahiggins]

. Someone once told me that with zero nitrates that can bring on cyano, can someone explain that one to me?

It may have something to do with the competition for resources. Remember, cyano isn't an algae, it's a bacteria. It doesn't necessarily (and you'll find most cases) need any nitrates to survive.

 

[re76]

Will try these recommendations once I beat the Dino's. Until they are gone I need to run the carbon, skimmer and GFO.

But once they are gone, maybe I will do the following:

Run skimmer 12 hours instead of 24.
Run carbon and GFO 1 or 2 days instead of 7.
Adding Potassium Nitrate starting at 1ppm (once a week? Daily)

And getting more fish in there! The 2 clowns and the wrasse don't add much bioload in a big tank like that.

Plan is to add at least another 6-8 fish

I am already in the process of working out a way to mount T5's in my canopy and getting rid of the LED's. I still think with me being a novice a 4 bulb fixture at the right intensity and spectrum that is on and off is better for me.

How are you maintaining alkalinity? When you do an alkalinity correction how does it usually happen? Alk burn is very easy to cause in a ULNS system. Especially if you have actual 0 readings for Nitrate and the corals are starving. This causes RTN in most cases and sounds like what you are describing.

I had problems with SPS until I started dosing Nitrate and making sure my Alk is really stable.

I would recommend dosing Spectracide to get to 1-2ppm Nitrates. Shoot for <0.05 phosphate. My current heuristic for maintaining parameters is:

Nitrates:
Less than 1ppm? -> Dose spectracide to achieve 2ppm
Greater than 1ppm -> Don't care

Phosphates:
Less than 0.04 -> Do nothing
Greater than 0.04 -> Replace GFO

I run carbon and GFO in the same reactor. Whenever I change the GFO I also replace the carbon. I feed pretty heavily and use carbon dosing (Aquaforest NP Pro and Pro Bio S) to keep nutrients on the decline even with the heavy feeding. I then adjust the dose of spectracide to keep things where I want them. I probably measure nitrates and phosphate every 3 days and then decide if I need to dose or not. Right now spectracide is a manual dose for me.

 

[pdiehm]

Alkalinity is maintained with water changes. I don't (didn't) have large corals. Small frags. There is no dosing in the tank

 

[re76]

Alkalinity is maintained with water changes. I don't (didn't) have large corals. Small frags. There is no dosing in the tank

Gotcha. That makes sense. Have you ever measured the alk of the fresh mixed water and compared it to your tank water prior to doing the water change?

 

[pdiehm]

Yes I have. My water mixes up at 7.8-8.2 and the tank water is in the 7.6-7.9 range.

Alkalinity per Hanna is 7.6 (from 5 minutes ago).

 

[pdiehm]

So if the 120's water is too clean, that makes the frag tank water too clean.

That also explains why the biocube is doing so much better, because that tank consistently has 10-15ppm in Nitrates, 0.02 in PO4, and an Alkalinity that holds around 7.9-8.1. My torch is always out with its feeder thingamajib or stinger, the Candy Cane is always open and puffed up, and the brain is always colorful. If I'm lucky, I do 5g water changes on that every 2 weeks, as much as I try to do it weekly, sometimes things just take priority.

So all the people who say you need to have 0 NO3, 0 PO4 are blowing smoke up my ****. Slightly dirty water is good from what I'm reading.

 

[Rick.45cal]

So if the 120's water is too clean, that makes the frag tank water too clean.

That also explains why the biocube is doing so much better, because that tank consistently has 10-15ppm in Nitrates, 0.02 in PO4, and an Alkalinity that holds around 7.9-8.1. My torch is always out with its feeder thingamajib or stinger, the Candy Cane is always open and puffed up, and the brain is always colorful. If I'm lucky, I do 5g water changes on that every 2 weeks, as much as I try to do it weekly, sometimes things just take priority.

So all the people who say you need to have 0 NO3, 0 PO4 are blowing smoke up my ****. Slightly dirty water is good from what I'm reading.

Welcome to the dark side...

 

[Neptune1707]

All interesting info here!!! I feel like this is mirror of my story on my Red Sea Max-500 tank (120g). By all test results, I think my water has become to clean. Running GFO, Cheato and Kent Reef carbon in a bag. My Leathers are the only thing doing exceptionally well, basic zoo's and mushroom shrunken or very small. Recently moved several of those corals to my office tank that I recently set up with some existing live rock I had in separate home tank. zoo's that I couldn't get open for well over 6 months in my "clean" home tank were open and happy within hours at office tank. The only difference I can nail done is higher phosphates/nitrates at office tank. I am limited to using tap water at work to mix salt. Use RO/DI at home. Otherwise per my water chemistry charts, all other parameters are spot on between home and office tank, other than the higher phosphate/nitrate at work. Guess the softies like it. I even have a torch coral that was about to be garbage and I gave it one more shot in office tank and now just within a week its open and extend to twice it's size....gives me hope. But I also tried SPS at home with just a blue acropora, within 2 days it was bleached...I waited a bit longer to see if it would recover...no luck. So the piece got tossed. I'm thinking after reading this, I may take my GFO reactor offline and perhaps dial back carbon use. Not sure what to do with the cheato??? I have 3 tangs, 3 clowns, 1 royal gramma, 1 blue damsel and 1 anthias....I was running GFO/carbon/Cheato to keep bio load in check....perhaps I'm doing overkill...any thoughts? I will prob take another stab at SPS later.

 

[prsnlty]

All interesting info here!!! I feel like this is mirror of my story on my Red Sea Max-500 tank (120g). By all test results, I think my water has become to clean. Running GFO, Cheato and Kent Reef carbon in a bag. My Leathers are the only thing doing exceptionally well, basic zoo's and mushroom shrunken or very small. Recently moved several of those corals to my office tank that I recently set up with some existing live rock I had in separate home tank. zoo's that I couldn't get open for well over 6 months in my "clean" home tank were open and happy within hours at office tank. The only difference I can nail done is higher phosphates/nitrates at office tank. I am limited to using tap water at work to mix salt. Use RO/DI at home. Otherwise per my water chemistry charts, all other parameters are spot on between home and office tank, other than the higher phosphate/nitrate at work. Guess the softies like it. I even have a torch coral that was about to be garbage and I gave it one more shot in office tank and now just within a week its open and extend to twice it's size....gives me hope. But I also tried SPS at home with just a blue acropora, within 2 days it was bleached...I waited a bit longer to see if it would recover...no luck. So the piece got tossed. I'm thinking after reading this, I may take my GFO reactor offline and perhaps dial back carbon use. Not sure what to do with the cheato??? I have 3 tangs, 3 clowns, 1 royal gramma, 1 blue damsel and 1 anthias....I was running GFO/carbon/Cheato to keep bio load in check....perhaps I'm doing overkill...any thoughts? I will prob take another stab at SPS later.

Yep exactly ... but keep the chaeto [emoji6] it makes a great home for pods

 

[re76]

So if the 120's water is too clean, that makes the frag tank water too clean.

That also explains why the biocube is doing so much better, because that tank consistently has 10-15ppm in Nitrates, 0.02 in PO4, and an Alkalinity that holds around 7.9-8.1. My torch is always out with its feeder thingamajib or stinger, the Candy Cane is always open and puffed up, and the brain is always colorful. If I'm lucky, I do 5g water changes on that every 2 weeks, as much as I try to do it weekly, sometimes things just take priority.

So all the people who say you need to have 0 NO3, 0 PO4 are blowing smoke up my ****. Slightly dirty water is good from what I'm reading.

I think the concept of zero NO3 and PO4 gets tossed around a lot, but only by people who have never actually been at zero!

My guess is that before carbon dosing and GFO became popular and accepted, people were always striving to achieve zero but never quite could, but there tanks probably did fine because while they weren't at zero they were at that happy place just above zero. Then GFO and carbon dosing came around and suddenly it became relatively easy to achieve zero nutrients, but the story of what SHOULD be done never changed.

That is just my guess at what has happened. I feel like there is a lot of "accepted" advice that gets thrown around in this hobby which might have been true 10 years ago, but no one ever really questions it these days.

 

[DHill6]

In my case I had absolutely no nitrate/phosphate. I couldn't keep the cheato alive in the Pax Bellum Reactor. SPS weren't doing as well as they could, had a few STN issues. These were the 'designer' corals, ouch! This tank is a bare bottom cube with one fish, no live rock, a bonsai reef sculpture. Previously it had a sandbed and Tonga rock ,I'm over that. The diva fish, white wyoming clown, is loving her territory. Yes, I know the argument of more fish, feeding the coral with the fish poo. I personally would rather have more coral, less fish. Since dosing for nitrate and feeding coral more, the tank has shown remarkable improvement. Just had to dirty up the water. There are many ways to run a tank, just have to figure out what works for you.

 

[pdiehm]

Tested the BioCube 29 just now.

7.3 Alkalinity
415 Calcium
Salinity 1.024
Nitrate: 15 ppm
pH: 8.2 (roughly...hate reading colors)


120:
7.5 alkalinity
415 Calcium
Salinity 1.025
Nitrate: 0
pH: 8.22 (apex)