GFCI outlet

[Otter_rs]

This just reminds me that this is the area of physics of which I did not excel. In my thinking, I always figured that when I was the ground closing a circuit, that allowed me to find a stray charge when one was present. This allows me to solve the problem in a timely fission. My question would be, what is more harmful to an aquarium's inhabitants, an ungrounded stray charge, or a grounded charge allowing the circuit to be closed? I also question how much of a stray current would be needed to trip a GFI?


Brent \><{{{{*>
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[H@rry]

This just reminds me that this is the area of physics of which I did not excel. In my thinking, I always figured that when I was the ground closing a circuit, that allowed me to find a stray charge when one was present. This allows me to solve the problem in a timely fission. My question would be, what is more harmful to an aquarium's inhabitants, an ungrounded stray charge, or a grounded charge allowing the circuit to be closed? I also question how much of a stray current would be needed to trip a GFI?


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Brent - I'm not sure how it would work but from what I can understand corals (and probably fish too) are affected by stray voltage in a tank. Now in the case of a ground probe, the GFCI would trip and the stray voltage is gone. When you notice no power to your tank, unplug everything, reset the GFCI, and plug things back in again one at a time until you find the one that trips it.

 

[Otter_rs]

Brent - I'm not sure how it would work but from what I can understand corals (and probably fish too) are affected by stray voltage in a tank. Now in the case of a ground probe, the GFCI would trip and the stray voltage is gone. When you notice no power to your tank, unplug everything, reset the GFCI, and plug things back in again one at a time until you find the one that trips it.

Hey Harry,
I know fish and coral are affected by stray voltage, but my question is what current is worse, a grounded or closed circuit, or an ungrounded stray voltage?
As for the ground probe tripping the GFI. What you explain isn't the ground probe tripping the GFI, it's a bad electrical product like a pump tripping it. Now I agree that a bad pump tripping a GFI before it catches fire and burns down the house is a good thing. On the flip side, if you have a very low stray voltage that you can barely feel when you ground it and it trips a GFI and it shuts down your life support, that's bad. Because, in my opinion, a low stray voltage will take a long time to hurt your tank inhabitants, while no life support will kill everything quickly. I'm not sure if we are on the same page as to what I'm asking.


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[H@rry]

I think I understand some of what you're asking. You're saying that a pump that is barely leaking could do less harm than no pump at all (like the old saying: bad breath is better than no breath at all). I guess if you were away from home for a day or so and a pump started leaking enough to trip the GFCI you could come home to a lot of dead animals. That would be a definate possibility. I understand what you're saying.

I guess my position is that I want to know when something is starting to fail so I can replace it immediately.

 

[dictionaaron]

I think grounding has nothing to do with a gfci, it measures a delta between hot and neutral, if you have a messed up device it will leak to the ground causing the hot and neutral to be imbalanced and trip since it would normally return on the neutral but now is on the ground. Stray voltage in a normal sense is induced from a moving device or any device with current flowing through it near the water. Anything in either of those instances produces an electric field which gives you stray voltage. Normally it does nothing as its not grounded. But a grounding probe causes that to be a complete circuit with the water and inhabitants as resistors, the stray voltage as a source and that v/r as the current. The question is is ungrounded stray voyage with no current worse than a small current and no voltage.

 

[Otter_rs]

I think grounding has nothing to do with a gfci, it measures a delta between hot and neutral, if you have a messed up device it will leak to the ground causing the hot and neutral to be imbalanced and trip since it would normally return on the neutral but now is on the ground. Stray voltage in a normal sense is induced from a moving device or any device with current flowing through it near the water. Anything in either of those instances produces an electric field which gives you stray voltage. Normally it does nothing as its not grounded. But a grounding probe causes that to be a complete circuit with the water and inhabitants as resistors, the stray voltage as a source and that v/r as the current. The question is is ungrounded stray voyage with no current worse than a small current and no voltage.

Yes... That is my main question.


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[dictionaaron]

And I think the answer is it depends on who you ask. I like that a ground probe and gfci offers instant feedback if a device fails with no risk of shock, but I also have a wood stand on carpet so it's not grounded and I can't really shock myself anyway.

 

[dictionaaron]

I had like 45 volts stray and so When I added a probe I completed the circuit and have had no ill effects, so that may answer the question empirically

 

[Otter_rs]

I had like 45 volts stray and so When I added a probe I completed the circuit and have had no ill effects, so that may answer the question empirically

What ill effects did you see with the stray voltage prior to the grounding?


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[Otter_rs]

And that stray voltage didn't trip a GFI, correct?


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[dictionaaron]

Not unless there is a bad device, stray voltage isn't being sucked from the source it's induced by that stuff working. So stray voltage current would be an addition . It requires diverting some of the 120 volt supply to trigger a gfci. Don't know if that makes sense, but u can actually build a device to put next to a line with current flowing and draw power from the "stray induced voltage". I didn't see any ill effects before either I was just new so I was told it was the right thing to do. People had successful aquariums before gfci's or grounding probes were around. Just saying

 

[Otter_rs]

Not unless there is a bad device, stray voltage isn't being sucked from the source it's induced by that stuff working. So stray voltage current would be an addition . It requires diverting some of the 120 volt supply to trigger a gfci. Don't know if that makes sense, but u can actually build a device to put next to a line with current flowing and draw power from the "stray induced voltage". I didn't see any ill effects before either I was just new so I was told it was the right thing to do. People had successful aquariums before gfci's or grounding probes were around. Just saying

This is how I understood this prior to this discussion. At some point I think there was some confusion and misinformation about what a ground probe does, and how it interacts, or doesn't interact with a GFcI. Although, I still wonder whether a stray voltage is more harmful grounded or ungrounded.


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[dictionaaron]

I agree completely, I don't know the answer but it think it works fine either way, if it was me id do both just for the safety aspect. But if if your sacrificing something else u need that is more permanent id do that first and add the gfci/grounding probe later

 

[Otter_rs]

I agree completely, I don't know the answer but it think it works fine either way, if it was me id do both just for the safety aspect. But if if your sacrificing something else u need that is more permanent id do that first and add the gfci/grounding probe later

Thanks, I do use GFcI outlets, but I think I will go on not using a ground probe, as I feel it masks potential stray voltage issues.


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[Greenpj22]

Ok, I've been following along with the thread, trying to understand it.. ha

1. GFCI with no grounding probe - the gfci will not trip/cut off the circuit if something is leaking electricity unless it has somewhere else to go (ie complete the circuit via a grounding probe, me sticking my hand in the tank, etc). So in other words, if there is stray voltage or electricity, whatever you call it, in my tank, the GFCI won't trip until I stick my hand in the tank and I'm properly grounded. It should trip pretty quick so I'm not electrocuted?

2. GFCI with grounding probe - the grounding probe allows the stray electricity "another way" out of the tank, and the GFCI senses this as soon as the problem occurs and it shuts off power.

Are my assumptions correct as to this? The whole reason I installed a gfci is for my safety. Don't want to be electrocuted.

 

[bct15]

Ok, I've been following along with the thread, trying to understand it.. ha

1. GFCI with no grounding probe - the gfci will not trip/cut off the circuit if something is leaking electricity unless it has somewhere else to go (ie complete the circuit via a grounding probe, me sticking my hand in the tank, etc). So in other words, if there is stray voltage or electricity, whatever you call it, in my tank, the GFCI won't trip until I stick my hand in the tank and I'm properly grounded. It should trip pretty quick so I'm not electrocuted?

2. GFCI with grounding probe - the grounding probe allows the stray electricity "another way" out of the tank, and the GFCI senses this as soon as the problem occurs and it shuts off power.

Are my assumptions correct as to this? The whole reason I installed a gfci is for my safety. Don't want to be electrocuted.

Your gfci will trip regardless if you have a grounding probe or not...

 

[Greenpj22]

Your gfci will trip regardless if you have a grounding probe or not...

Well then what's the point of having a grounding probe then? Sorry for my ignorance... not good with electricity or ohms law or any of that.

 

[Otter_rs]

Your gfci will trip regardless if you have a grounding probe or not...

+1 grind probe has nothing to do with it.


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[bct15]

This is how I understood this prior to this discussion. At some point I think there was some confusion and misinformation about what a ground probe does, and how it interacts, or doesn't interact with a GFcI. Although, I still wonder whether a stray voltage is more harmful grounded or ungrounded.


Brent \>
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My take on it,

Ground probe more safe for you less safe for inhabitants

No ground probe less safe for you more safe for inhabitants.

I don't use ground probes.

 

[Otter_rs]

Well then what's the point of having a grounding probe then? Sorry for my ignorance... not good with electricity or ohms law or any of that.

This is how i understand it;
A ground probe "grounds" a low stray voltage from all your electrics bleeding voltage into the system. A small zap is all you generally feel from this low voltage. Too low to trip a GFI. A GFI trips, ground probe or not, when a strong electrical surge is indicated, such as a fried pump.


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