GHL Vs Apex Episode Series
- Thread starter reefandreptileautomation
- Start date
- Tagged users None
a4edwin
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2018
- Messages
- 746
- Reaction score
- 1,010
- What state or country do you live in
- New York
Good job! but it’s like android vs iOS everybody has their preferences. Ghl looks more like you need some type of degree to be able to use it. While the apex is more user friendly. Eventually I’ll like to get one of them more than likely I’ll go with the apex because that’s what most people seem to go with. Call me a sheep if you want.
I understand that your review is based on your experience and as such, your opinions are derived from that. But my fear from the start was that because you cut your teeth with apex, your opinions would skew in favor of apex. I don't think the common viewer will be able to draw the same conclusion and take your final rating as a fair unbiased opinion.
Now that the videos are complete, I think that others should chime in and give their review based on the 20 criteria you set forth. It would be fair to have people rate their experience regardless if they're solely GHL or apex users. An even better review would be to have involvement from people with vast experience in both platforms. With very little experience with GHL, I want to convey my review of apex/fusion.
Appearance, Price, Mounting and Connection: Aesthetics and pricing are subjective, I personally don't have an opinion on the choices made in appearance, pricing and how to mount them, it's the companies prerogative as to how they move forward in those areas, none of us are going to make compelling arguments to change their minds, and as such my rating respectively is: 3 STARS, 3 STARS, 3 STARS, 3 STARS
Setup: It sounds like your experience setting up Apex was quite opposite of mine. I spent 4-5 hours trying to figure out how to connect to wifi and get started, I ended up initiating the apex via hard wire. I have never forgot that, and still makes me mad when I think about it. 2 STARS
Dashboard: 4 STARS
Speed: I've experienced on multiple occasions when I wrote code to an outlet and tried to save it, the apex would kick out and require me to log back in and everything that was written was lost. 3 STARS
Calibration: Agree 3 STARS
Programming for Novice: I agree that NS went through great lengths to make things extremely easy for novice users with tasks. The tasks function covers much of what a normal user would expect the controller to do. 5 STARS
Advanced Programming: I can see how apex gets a bad wrap on their approach to pseudo coding, and wasn't until recently when I read that it would take too much work to swap everything over to true boolean type coding and that the work around and answer to the "or" "and" statements was to add virtual outlets, which can become extremely complicated. But none the less, it enabled the advanced user to work around those limitations. 3 STARS
Expansion: Nothing to add to this. Apex pretty much covers all the bases with their modules. 4 STARS
Features: Can't speak smartly about this. except I would like to use this platform to convey how great it would be to receive an email/text alert for calendar reminders. Unfortunately I don't frequent the fusion app so the calendar doesn't work for me. It would be nice to have fusion remind me via a push notification. 4 STARS
Display: I have an apex display but never use it for anything but a quick glance at temp, pH, DKH. I personally use a discarded phone that is permanently affixed to a wall in the fish room for interface with apex. 3 STARS
Notifications: Apex needs to expand push notifications. 4 stars
Power mgt and graphs: Hands down 5 STARS
Support: Most CS entities have canned statements at the ready. And it seems they get an influx of simple complaints that are easily explained through the canned statements. Although when a detailed problem comes across their inbox, they don't take the time to read the problem in its entirety and fail to give it the proper attention for a detailed response. It takes multiple back and forth correspondents to get a competent response. Then going off your 12 hour turn around time, the solution may take days as opposed to getting the proper attention from the start. 2 STARS
Warranty: No comment. 4 STARS
Measurements: The obvious comment is the conductivity probe, absolutely garbage. I don't have a trident, and never will for the vary simple reason that I don't care to know my daily calcium and magnesium levels, that platform could've easily been used for N03 and P04. 3 STARS
Integrations: When it comes to integration, I think the topic should've revolved more around how well other products can be integrated into the different platforms, IotA doesn't seem to be as great as it's made out to be. Integrating products made by the same company should be seamless in terms of compatibility. Pertaining to calc and mag, the khD doesn't test for them because it's not necessary. And to drive home the idea that the khD is a better choice, you don't have a single source to purchase their reagent, a user can purchase it from many different suppliers which can easily lower operational costs compared to trident. 3 STARS.
3rd Party: See above 3 STARS
TOTAL: 67 STARS
I used 3 as the unit of measure when it met my expectation and anything above and below that reflect satisfaction or dissatisfaction. To me that's a fair assessment of my experience with apex. I would like to see other first hand reviews from people that use apex and/or GHL, of course those with experience in both would greatly be preferred.
Now that the videos are complete, I think that others should chime in and give their review based on the 20 criteria you set forth. It would be fair to have people rate their experience regardless if they're solely GHL or apex users. An even better review would be to have involvement from people with vast experience in both platforms. With very little experience with GHL, I want to convey my review of apex/fusion.
Appearance, Price, Mounting and Connection: Aesthetics and pricing are subjective, I personally don't have an opinion on the choices made in appearance, pricing and how to mount them, it's the companies prerogative as to how they move forward in those areas, none of us are going to make compelling arguments to change their minds, and as such my rating respectively is: 3 STARS, 3 STARS, 3 STARS, 3 STARS
Setup: It sounds like your experience setting up Apex was quite opposite of mine. I spent 4-5 hours trying to figure out how to connect to wifi and get started, I ended up initiating the apex via hard wire. I have never forgot that, and still makes me mad when I think about it. 2 STARS
Dashboard: 4 STARS
Speed: I've experienced on multiple occasions when I wrote code to an outlet and tried to save it, the apex would kick out and require me to log back in and everything that was written was lost. 3 STARS
Calibration: Agree 3 STARS
Programming for Novice: I agree that NS went through great lengths to make things extremely easy for novice users with tasks. The tasks function covers much of what a normal user would expect the controller to do. 5 STARS
Advanced Programming: I can see how apex gets a bad wrap on their approach to pseudo coding, and wasn't until recently when I read that it would take too much work to swap everything over to true boolean type coding and that the work around and answer to the "or" "and" statements was to add virtual outlets, which can become extremely complicated. But none the less, it enabled the advanced user to work around those limitations. 3 STARS
Expansion: Nothing to add to this. Apex pretty much covers all the bases with their modules. 4 STARS
Features: Can't speak smartly about this. except I would like to use this platform to convey how great it would be to receive an email/text alert for calendar reminders. Unfortunately I don't frequent the fusion app so the calendar doesn't work for me. It would be nice to have fusion remind me via a push notification. 4 STARS
Display: I have an apex display but never use it for anything but a quick glance at temp, pH, DKH. I personally use a discarded phone that is permanently affixed to a wall in the fish room for interface with apex. 3 STARS
Notifications: Apex needs to expand push notifications. 4 stars
Power mgt and graphs: Hands down 5 STARS
Support: Most CS entities have canned statements at the ready. And it seems they get an influx of simple complaints that are easily explained through the canned statements. Although when a detailed problem comes across their inbox, they don't take the time to read the problem in its entirety and fail to give it the proper attention for a detailed response. It takes multiple back and forth correspondents to get a competent response. Then going off your 12 hour turn around time, the solution may take days as opposed to getting the proper attention from the start. 2 STARS
Warranty: No comment. 4 STARS
Measurements: The obvious comment is the conductivity probe, absolutely garbage. I don't have a trident, and never will for the vary simple reason that I don't care to know my daily calcium and magnesium levels, that platform could've easily been used for N03 and P04. 3 STARS
Integrations: When it comes to integration, I think the topic should've revolved more around how well other products can be integrated into the different platforms, IotA doesn't seem to be as great as it's made out to be. Integrating products made by the same company should be seamless in terms of compatibility. Pertaining to calc and mag, the khD doesn't test for them because it's not necessary. And to drive home the idea that the khD is a better choice, you don't have a single source to purchase their reagent, a user can purchase it from many different suppliers which can easily lower operational costs compared to trident. 3 STARS.
3rd Party: See above 3 STARS
TOTAL: 67 STARS
I used 3 as the unit of measure when it met my expectation and anything above and below that reflect satisfaction or dissatisfaction. To me that's a fair assessment of my experience with apex. I would like to see other first hand reviews from people that use apex and/or GHL, of course those with experience in both would greatly be preferred.
OP
OP
reefandreptileautomation
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 261
- Reaction score
- 130
- Location
- Arizona
- What state or country do you live in
- Arizona
I appreciate your time taken to provide your own review.
Please note that these videos are for FIRST time buyers and as such. Showing what to expect if you purchase either. It was never meant for anyone that already has it. As such going into this I was not bias toward either and made sure to be that way. When I did the final review I was able to expand on my findings and that was it.
GHL has Zero mounting options so I do not know how I can give them any credit on that. All of apex devices are mountable. Most of my findings again are relative to my experience and also most issues with both systems are typically user error.
Please note that these videos are for FIRST time buyers and as such. Showing what to expect if you purchase either. It was never meant for anyone that already has it. As such going into this I was not bias toward either and made sure to be that way. When I did the final review I was able to expand on my findings and that was it.
GHL has Zero mounting options so I do not know how I can give them any credit on that. All of apex devices are mountable. Most of my findings again are relative to my experience and also most issues with both systems are typically user error.
robbyg
Valuable Member
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2019
- Messages
- 2,306
- Reaction score
- 2,863
- What state or country do you live in
- Florida
I was hesitant to post on the video conclusion series because I noticed nobody else seemed to be interested enough to reply until now. This series kind of started out with a little hope but it became very clear after the first unboxing video that this was not going fair and that feeling was just confirmed more and more with each passing video.
I watched the last two videos and really just thought this was so skewed by the authors own view point and personal affiliations that it made zero sense to me. Since @Sisterlimonpot asked for owner input and as a person who owns and uses an Apex and has spent several hours with the Profilux 4, this is how I would rank it.
Appearance, Price, Mounting and Connection: The Appearance is pretty bad, it just a plastic cube with a really bad paint job. Does it really matter all that much, No! The connectors are also another issue, a wire hanging down is a wire that is waiting to fall out. It's not a deal breaker but in no way is it ideal. I have played with the Profilux 4 and I can at least comment on some sections of it with a fair level of confidence. Mounting with the Profilux is simple, you rest it on a shelf. If that is not something you have space for then the system is just not for you.
Appearance: Apex = 2 Stars & GHL = 5 Stars
Price: 3 Stars for both
Mounting Apex = 4 Stars & GHL = 2 Stars
Connections Apex = 3 Stars & GHL 5 Stars
Setup: I spent about 2 hours setting up the Apex. Something got messed with the whole WiFi settings and I also could not make a connection. After numerous hard resets I also had to hard wire mine and I was finally able to get in. I have no way of knowing if I botched something or if this a common experience but I since I am not an impatient guy it was not a huge deal to me but I would give the Apex Setup 3 Stars based on my own experience
Dashboard: This is an Area that Neptune excels at. I would give the Apex 4 STARS and from my use of the GHL dashboard I would give it 3 Stars
Speed: This whole thing of something taking 5 seconds versus 20 seconds is so low on my priority list that it's not even worth it to get into a match up. This is also highly dependent on your ISP but maybe someone else with a GHL unit can chime in if they have the same screen load up times. Since it's already in the video I will give the Apex 4 Stars and the Profilux 3 Stars.
Calibration: I did not have to many issues except for the Temp Probe so Apex gets 3 Stars. It's a far cry from my Aquatronica which has Zero issues with any form of Calibration
Programming for Novice: The software for getting started with the Apex is better than that on any other controller. For simple Tasks it is the easiest to setup and get going with, so I also give it 5 Stars.
Advanced Programming: This is where the Apex absolutely sucks. To do any kind of complicated program is tedious and often ends up with me and most others having to ask at Suncrestreef to write the code. The fact that even basic logic functions cannot be done easily in year 2020 with an expensive controller is just unbelievable and therefore the Apex gets 2 STARS. The Profilux logic system which I have played with is kind of easy to work with once you get past the first learning curve and as you try to create more complex program's the level of difficulty does not go up exponentially like it does with the Apex. I give the Profilux 4 Stars and take off one because they force you to use pen and paper to keep track of some of the labels. For those who don't think they will use advance programs I can guarantee you that you will use them, if not I am not sure why you would buy a controller in this price bracket.
Expansion: Well with the WXM gone and GHL still offering their version plus the fact that the GHL has a whole expansion box that you can add-on I would give the Apex 4 STARS and The profilux 5 Stars
Features: Apex is pretty good in this department and so is the Profilux. I would give them both the same rating Apex 4 STARS and GHL 4 Stars
Display: This one was confusing to me as this is something that comes with the Profilux and is an accessory for the Apex. My thinking that if your going to include it in the review then the price of the Apex package being reviewed just went up by $100.
Notifications: Coming from the Aquatronica which allows me to create labels for each Notification it's crazy that the Apex just gives you these generic messages. Since the GHL at least has specific messages that makes it a lot more useful. The Push Notifications on the Apex are great but the lack of specifics is not so great. So I would rate The Apex 3 stars simply because I never know if the alert problem is serious or not. I don't have enough experience with the GHL to make an educated comment on it.
Power mgt and graphs:The power management concept is great but the numbers it produces are not accurate or even close to being accurate. So yes it is helpful as a rough number to know what the Devices baseline power consumption is, but is useless for calculating out an electricity bill. On the other hand the Apex Graphs are probably it's best feature so when the two are combined it's 4 Star for me on the Apex. One point off because the Power readings are just a relative number for each device.
Support: I have not had to use it yet but I am lucky enough that that I can put stuff up on my own workbench and repair it if need be. I hear good thing on both sides of the isle. Vinny at GHL seems to be always easy to reach but I have never had to ask him a support questions. I also hear good things about Neptune so based on just the forum posts I would say both companies seem to be 4 Star.
Warranty: This is another one of those moments in the review series that was just so biased that it was worthless. Apex has a 1 Year Warranty and GHL has a 2 Year Warranty. Both companies will get your stuff fixed. The time it takes probably depends on many factors but overall a two year warranty trumps a one year any day of the week. So Apex = 3 Stars and GHL = 5 Stars.
Measurements: I also find the Salinity probe and the Flow modules to be really bad on the Apex. The jury is out on the Temp probe but its kind of disconcerting how the Apex Temp probe does the .4 deg temp swings every 5 minutes. I know that it is impossible for the tank water to change by .4 deg every 5 minutes on a constant basis. Overall I am not impressed when two measurement devices have major issues and a third is iffy. so 3 STARS!
Integrations: Yeah I also thought the IotA comment was just saying something about nothing. Overall I find both system to be Ok and I would have given the Apex 4 Stars but the lack of a WXM module now puts the Apex at 3 STARS.
3rd Party: Neptune does not seem to play well with other companies and it seems like they are becoming more isolated every year. So I also give that 3 Stars
TOTAL: 64 out of 100 for the Apex
The problem is it all really means nothing because if this was a truly useful review the most important criteria would be reliability. Derrick may not want to spend the time to be able to make that assessment but it is the most critical thing anyone needs to know. So if I was reviewing these products half of the score would be weighed on reliability and the other half on all these other items. Bottom line is the controller is a Life Support system, if it cannot be relied on then it's just a weak link waiting to break and possibly wipe out your tank. It seems like reliability is the main Achilles heel for almost all of Neptunes products including the Apex. So even though I did not tally the GHL score due to knowledge gaps on certain features it seems like it would have been on Par with the Apex and if I factor in reports of Apex problems and adjusted for a greater user base it would still mean the Profilux is much more reliable.
Last edited:
KenO
Valuable Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2017
- Messages
- 1,145
- Reaction score
- 1,063
- What state or country do you live in
- Arizona
If the followers of this thread want a good assessment of GHL and Neptune then read this thread. The first 13 pages the OP Ditto is swapping from Apex to the P4 and shows the comparison of doing the same on both. Starting on page 14 he starts putting together tables showing what each product is capable of. Also remember that the thread started in mid 2017.
www.reef2reef.com
Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL
The title of the thread says it all. I am not going to bash Neptune systems, all I am going to say mine crashed again, and the word fluke in the technical response left me going I cannot take any more chances. This was my second hard crash of the system, where both time the system came up in an...
www.reef2reef.com
Macca_75
Active Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
- Messages
- 371
- Reaction score
- 167
- What state or country do you live in
- Australia
Hey Derrick,
Maybe a more fair score would have been Apex's mounting options vs. GHL "stacking" design? You're 100% correct they are not designed to be mounted - but the reason they are all the same form factor is they are designed to be stacked (Pro's and con's of stacking as well I guess). Profilux, Dosing pumps, MAXI dosers, KH Director and (soon to be released maybe??) ION Director all have the same foot print (designed to stack and not mount).
This dates back to their previous P3 model/line as well where the dosers and Profliux used the same footprint and didn't mount.
Just different options I guess.
I doubt the Apex line can stack, but they can mount (and there are some really nice 3rd party boards coming out).
(Random photo from the internet)
Overall a great series of videos with a focus on a "new to reefing automation" focus. I am sure, as per previous comments, users of either systems can poke holes either way.
OP
OP
reefandreptileautomation
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2019
- Messages
- 261
- Reaction score
- 130
- Location
- Arizona
- What state or country do you live in
- Arizona
Thank you for your comments. That was the point for the series. To have new buyers make their own decision as the last episodes were my opinion and only mine. At least it gets to give new users a chance to weigh their options. I will be doing another series on Hydros and also coming soon will he GHL tutorials.
