Ghost feeding is a myth perpetuated only in web forums

[brandon429]

I keep mentioning how withholding feed doesn't mean they aren't getting food... is that concept worth investigating? its kinda the crux of the issue, the fact that bandwagoning literally misses out on how these bacteria have adapted for eons long before we willed them into performance in our boxes of water.

when you stop feeding, your established bac still get fed by:


-the close and requisite association with non filtration bacteria, that's a living, dying, and respiring community and by definition community implies benefits vs singular living, what are those benefits, and how do they confer ammonia right to the nitrifiers?

is anyone keeping a reef tank fallow out there where gnats and skin cells aren't wafting into the tank? whats the combined effect here?

what other natural feed mechanisms are in place, that are being ignored by like 20 people who don't work with bacteria for a living?

 

[Brew12]

Who's to say the bacterial population doesn't decrease the longer it sits on the shelf? You've brought up many good points, just throwing this one out there.

It may. However they don't all die off or the product wouldn't work. And by all reports I have seen, nitrifying bacteria reproduce much more slowly than other types. That would could imply that the majority would need to survive.
Questions I wish I knew the answer to.
How do the bacteria respond to a lack of food? Do they slowly consume themselves (get smaller) until they die? Do they gradually go dormant until they either die or find a new food source? Are they able to basically maintain themselves "as is" until they get a new food source or die? If they do go dormant, how long does it take them to return to a fully active state once they are given a new food source? How long can they exist in a viable form in an otherwise sterile environment?

I cannot find a reputable source for this information. Without this information, and verifying it applies across the wide range of bacteria found in an aquarium, I don't think it is possible to state with certainty if ghost feeding is required or not.

 

[reeferfoxx]

non filtration bacteria

I will take "What is non filtration bacteria for $500, Alex?"

 

[Aaron Stone]

-the close and requisite association with non filtration bacteria, that's a living, dying, and respiring community and by definition community implies benefits vs singular living, what are those benefits, and how do they confer ammonia right to the nitrifiers?

is anyone keeping a reef tank fallow out there where gnats and skin cells aren't wafting into the tank? whats the combined effect here?

As I previously stated, bacteria are likely feeding from die off further up in the food chain, or even laterally in the food chain, but it's that die off that is as much a concern to me as the potential die off of bacteria.

 

[brandon429]

search

generalized aerobic bacteria, like the ones on your arms when you go into the tank and then cross contaminate in, and out. those bloom and die, and are part of the myriad feed webs being heavily not factored here

even without arms in the water, or feed, GAB still get in. the filthy organic stores in the sandbed we ran hands off for a long time still feeds the bac too, there are many ways they don't need our feed

contamination is occurring at all times in the wet environ well beyond GAB. theres spores, molds and fungi as well lol and I collect them

 

[reeferfoxx]

generalized aerobic bacteria

It still needs O2. Which in a sense is filtering O2?

 

[david p.]

I have seen, nitrifying bacteria reproduce much more slowly than other types. That would could imply that the majority would need to survive.

you are right, nitrifying bacteria are slow grower compared to other bacteria, that's why i consider vital for our systems to maintain constant population, or at least to make slow changes so the system adapts.

How do the bacteria respond to a lack of food? Do they slowly consume themselves (get smaller) until they die? Do they gradually go dormant until they either die or find a new food source? Are they able to basically maintain themselves "as is" until they get a new food source or die? If they do go dormant, how long does it take them to return to a fully active state once they are given a new food source? How long can they exist in a viable form in an otherwise sterile environment?

Bacteria will die, population will decrease until food source = growth rate, new equilibrium is reached. In open system like our aquarium, other bacteria may become prevalent vs nitrifying if N become rate limiting. Nitrifying bacteria will not find new food source, but other bacteria that were outnumbered or outcompete by nitrifying bacteria will see their population increase if there is an opportunity. If no other food source are available, bacterial level will decrease, but it will never reach zero population (sterile environment).

The time needed to return to a fully active, if you mean the time needed to reach back the intitial bacterial population, it depends how much bacteria remains in the system. The worst case would be similar to restart a full cycle. When you start from dry rock, the bacterai comes from the water, the environment, the bottled bacteria, that's why it takes time.

for exemple, depending of our fermentation process, lag phase can be a few hours up to a few days, depending of the seeding of the media, systems conditions, volume of the system. Larger systems like waste treatment can take weeks / months to reach their full performance.

i never had to 'ghost feed' but it's something i would do if need be jsut to keep my system stable.

 

[brandon429]

Reefer
O2 has no bearing on context here these are high o2 environments

Though saltwater isn't lethal immediately they still die after a short bloom, that dead mass is nitrifier feed, combined with the other sources covered

 

[Aaron Stone]

I am not a microbiologist and I tend to look at things through the lens of my own field of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics.

As brandon429 points out, our aquariums are not truly closed systems, there are numerous inputs and outputs into our little black boxes, some large and some small. The two major energy inputs are food and light, yes skin cells, gnats, and external bacteria land in the water, but from a mass/energy standpoint these are typically orders of magnitude smaller than the food we feed our fish.

Now we stop feeding our fish, and do not "ghost feed", we are significantly decreasing energy input into the system. Our system is no longer in steady state so entropy must increase. You will be hard pressed to convince me that an increase in entropy in a relatively delicate system is a good thing. Bacteria will not be the first to suffer because they are a fairly low order organism, but eventually they will have to decrease as the higher ordered organisms suffer.

We continue to talk about the bacteria, but have failed to address what is happening to the other flora and fauna in the aquarium if we are not "ghost feeding" and what negative impacts we could see due to a die off further up the food chain.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Reefer
O2 has no bearing on context here these are high o2 environments

Though saltwater isn't lethal immediately they still die after a short bloom, that dead mass is nitrifier feed, combined with the other sources covered

You are calling aerobic bacteria a non filtering bacteria. I don't understand that as everything living on the planet filters something some how. If you get an infection on your skin, it needs O2 to survive. To ferment it needs sugars and fat to metabolize. Everything filters....

 

[reeferfoxx]

We continue to talk about the bacteria, but have failed to address what is happening to the other flora and fauna in the aquarium if we are not "ghost feeding" and what negative impacts we could see due to a die off further up the food chain.

Well, i've pointed this out a number of times.

 

[Aaron Stone]

everything living on the planet filters something some how

For example: I am particularly effective at filtering coffee

 

[brandon429]

Reefer



GAB are going into high oxygen area, bloom, die, feed nitrifiers

it's the fact feed is there a plenty after we withhold, and nobody highlighted that so far

 

[reeferfoxx]

it's the fact feed is there a plenty after we withhold, and nobody highlighted that so far

This was highlighted and like others asked such as @Brew12 how long this process will last?

 

[brandon429]

Aaron that was good point my take on it is at most we're talking fanworms and pods etc, which won't dieoff all at once it's a slow downgrade and that too is bac feed

To lose them makes our tanks just like the ones running freshly cycled dry rock minus the benthics, still an active filter

 

[Aaron Stone]

GAB are going into high oxygen area, bloom, die, feed nitrifiers

it's the fact feed is there a plenty after we withhold, and nobody highlighted that so far

I think this HAS been addressed by david p. and by myself:

You have multiple sources of food for the nitrifiers, so the bacterial colony grows to the point that it is in equilibrium with the total quantity of food available.
Now you remove one of those sources, an extremely large source. The colony will decrease in size until it is again in equilibrium with the available food.

 

[Aaron Stone]

To lose them makes our tanks just like the ones running freshly cycled dry rock minus the benthics, still an active filter

I for one do not want to take a tank that has been up and running for years back to the state of a freshly cycled tank

I, and I would be willing to be most people, would be willing to "ghost feed" to avoid this

 

[reeferfoxx]

I'm tapping out. I don't think ghost feeding is a "myth" as it has a purpose.

 

[brandon429]

But our point was bacteria, and it seems to be reinforced by your point fair to say...

The food sources we ignored still feed those benthics too. Food webs still supported without our feed help unless you're talking years not mos

My only point to get talk going was that filters persist even if we stop whole feed for a while

It's commonly thought they would die even off just a month or two of stop feeding, not the case.

 

[reeferfoxx]

My only point to get talk going was that filters persist even if we stop whole feed for a while

It's commonly thought they would die even off just a month or two of stop feeding, not the case.

Except I pointed out 3 situations and where one tank might not last 2 weeks without a food source.