Ghost feeding is a myth perpetuated only in web forums

[brandon429]

list with me what those alternate sources are, the organics alone left in the filthy sandbeds we run are enough for years of sustain, without pellets being added. are you thinking more is required?

 

[reeferfoxx]

ive asked several times for you to list with me what those alternate sources are, the organics alone left in the filthy sandbeds we run are enough for years of sustain, without pellets being added. are you thinking more is required?

This is all a mystery to me lol.

Lets assume the tank we are discussing doesn't have a sand bed, as some tank don't have sandbed.

The organisms that are alive that would help provide food for the BB would have to worms, snails, sponges, pods, etc etc.

 

[brandon429]

im also glad for your challenges that kept this thread going, I rarely get to make good viral ones lol they fall down.

its true that respiration from those benthics in the bare bottom tank will feed the beneficial bacteria, but there's also requisite organics stored in the rock itself, as indicated by those animals listed. where they go, pent up waste goes, and that is piling up and the bacteria do not require much at all to hold steady state. it was mentioned earlier the bottled bac literally has no feed, only hydration, and gets a year. so glad for that little inclusion from the crowd +1 it gets hard to fend off 20 even though I asked for it lol.

if someone was running a QT tank with only bare glass, and one pvc pipe, that might have to be ghost fed to maintain its oxidation ability due to restricted surface area. I still don't know how long it would have to go before starving, as ive never seen anyone digest test a bare tank like that to even know what it could do at the start, with fish, with feeding.

if there was an ammonia sponge for the filter we are back to square one, that sponge filter if kept wet will still filter just the same after mos of fallow *even though there are no pods in that setup, nor organics, it was bb**

it calls into play at that point the other feed sources we can name, or ya'll could search out...anything that constitutes floc or contaminations will break down to yield ammonia.

if you have a wet tank in a filthy house (microbially speaking) that's all the nitrifiers need to hold course quite a long long time once we withhold feed, that's my original point. this breakdown of the ecosystem doesn't start like aquarists think it will, and from that detail we are able to do things with tanks considered impossible 20 yrs ago.

 

[reeferfoxx]

where they go, pent up waste goes, and that is piling up and the bacteria do not require much at all to hold steady state. it was mentioned earlier the bottled bac literally has no feed, only hydration, and gets a year.

Do we fully understand how much is required of bacteria to survive?
And yeah bottle bacteria has a slow metabolic rate if kept in cool dark places. Without those conditions the life expectancy drops dramatically. Once the right temps are introduced the bacteria begins to metabolize.

 

[Sabellafella]

I dont believe in ghost feeding either. On the hobby standpoint, one should take the extra step to research on adding fish slowly regardless if they used 5 ppm ammonia to start a cycle. Bacteria in a bottle IMO should be used for setup deadline tanks as it should be your last resort, if a vendor at macna needs too jiffy up a display tank quick. nomatter what bacteria will compete in a home aquaria. Yea you can take it to a lab and do all the studys and whatnot on culture size and culture "ghost" feeding. From a hobby standpoint, ghost feeding is deffinitly not neccessary, imo just another way to polute a tank. You want bacteria to establish themselves fully before making changes.

 

[brandon429]

id have to counter that because these fallow tanks are kept close to 80, opposite of cool, that's making the bac metabolism spike massively for the non filtration types and increasing feed for the filtration bac. its literally part of what maintains the alt feed source, the temps we run.

 

[reeferfoxx]

I dont believe in ghost feeding either. On the hobby standpoint, one should take the extra step to research on adding fish slowly regardless if they used 5 ppm ammonia to start a cycle. Bacteria in a bottle IMO should be used for setup deadline tanks as it should be your last resort, if a vendor at macna needs too jiffy up a display tank quick. nomatter what bacteria will compete in a home aquaria. Yea you can take it to a lab and do all the studys and whatnot on culture size and culture "ghost" feeding. From a hobby standpoint, ghost feeding is deffinitly not neccessary, imo just another way to polute a tank. You want bacteria to establish themselves fully before making changes.

I would only ghost feed for the purpose of keeping micro fauna alive. Keeping a strong bcterial colony for future interactions would be considered also.

 

[reeferfoxx]

non filtration types

Everything eats, poops and filters. I don't understand the non filter type statements.

 

[david p.]

i skipped a few post, but i saw 'sterility' in some of them. Sterility in an aquarium is IMPOSSIBLE. The bioburden load (bacteria population) can be very very low at a point we consider nitrification not existent, but it's not sterile. Sterile is a concept where no living thing are present, even a new tank with dry rock is not sterile.

I'm hitting a mental block with a few things that I need to work out.

Such as.... How does the bacteria in a bottle actually stay alive and ready to respond almost instantly after sitting on a shelf for a year.
Why does a mature tank undergo a much smaller "mini-cycle" than a young tank with identical bio loads. For instance, if you take 2 tanks with 5 identical fish with one being 2 years old and the other being 6 months old, wouldn't they have almost identical bacteria colonies? So why would the younger tank experience a much larger cycle than the older tank if 3 identical fish were added?

Still feel like I am missing something. Hope you don't mind if I pick your mind about these things later after I give it some thought.

Bacteria bottle:
i never looked at them, so i don'T have the right answer, but i would assume the would have filled X amount of bactria. when i say enought its millions, enought to have several log reduction and enought to support their claimed shelf life on the product. They can also use a media (solution) that slow the metabolism of the bacteria and keeps them stable. they probably also put complex sugar that are hard to 'digest' so it feeds the bacteria, but not enought that they grow, but prevents them to die to fast. i would be curious also what types of bacteria it is, it's probably different than what we find in our 'naturally cycled' tank.I might take a look next time i stop at my LFS.

Mini-cycle vs full cycle:
In mature tank, when facing a mini-cycle, it's the lag phase that is much smaller due to the higher number of bacteria in the mature system. In new tank, their is much less bacteria therefore the lag phase before nitrification process kicks in is much longer. That's why by adding bacteria in bottles you increase the initial amount of bacteria in the system, it accelerate the process or reduce the lag phase/cycle time.
It takes only a few weeks to cycle or to reach the minimal amount of bacteria needed to remove amonia for a new tank with few fishes, but as the system mature, we tend to increase fish stock, pods population increase, we overfeed, etc,etc. all factors contributing to the increase bacterial population (more nutrient available) in a mature system.

these are the parallel i can see with what i know, but i might be wrong. i'm new to reefing, but it's the same principles that apply in my opinion.

 

[brandon429]

David you and I are agreeing on most points and I think trade/employment might be why. Not that I think you agree ghost feeding isn't required, but we're in the same ballpark man lol.

 

[reeferfoxx]

So... Ghost feeding isn't a myth?

 

[david p.]

i think ghost feeding can help, but it's not the end of the world if we don't.
i focus on bacteria in my explanations and i ditch ghost feeding had impact on pods and other fauna on purpose, all system can live without pods and other fauna, but no system can survive without bacteria. i'm not saying that fauna are not important or anything like that. i focus on the most critical item of the equation.

 

[brandon429]

Dry land isn't a myth, ghost feeding darn sure is

 

[Sabellafella]

I would only ghost feed for the purpose of keeping micro fauna alive. Keeping a strong bcterial colony for future interactions would be considered also.

Oh of corse, especially if you go fallow =)

 

[reeferfoxx]

ghost feeding darn sure is

How so? Please provide links

 

[reeferfoxx]

all system can live without pods and other fauna

Really?

 

[david p.]

Really?

please quote the entire statement.
They have a role to play in a stable system. but they are not mendatory. i did not say they are not needed!
no bacteria = death for the sytem
no pods = less biodiversity, no pods feeding fish., and so on.

pods are part of the ecosystem, what they dont eat will be transform eventually by the bacteria.

so i maintain my statement.

 

[reeferfoxx]

please quote the entire statement.
They have a role to play in a stable system. but they are not mendatory. i did not say they are not needed!
no bacteria = death for the sytem
no pods = less biodiversity, no pods feeding fish., and so on.

pods are part of the ecosystem, what they dont eat will be transform eventually by the bacteria.

so i maintain my statement.

It's only temporary sustainability. The bacteria doesn't thrive without a food source. Neither do pods. If no food source is presented what would bacteria feed on? Sure some bacteria will die and then prove a small snack to the next bacteria. But then so on and so forth you would eventually be left with nothing.. right?

 

[brandon429]

No, input continues naturally for both the heterotrophic bacteria, gab, and the nitrifiers

Both the feed and the bac input continues since you aren't reefing in a positive pressure microbiology lab

Even your chlorinated tap outputs nitrifiers ( the bandwagon reels )

 

[david p.]

It's only temporary sustainability. The bacteria doesn't thrive without a food source. Neither do pods. If no food source is presented what would bacteria feed on? Sure some bacteria will die and then prove a small snack to the next bacteria. But then so on and so forth you would eventually be left with nothing.. right?

no food = slow death of the bacteria population. so you are right. Food is a general term for anything a abcteria will eat (flake, poop, detritus, etc)