Greybeard's Rant on vendors selling sick animals

[Greybeard]

Why do we accept that vendors selling sick animals is normal?

Many marine hobbyists these days are recommending a full quarantine, including prophylactic treatment for every animal we buy. Why? Because we’ve accepted that a large percentage of the animals we purchase are going to be sick.

Say I want a yellow tang: Quick trip to the internet… $70. Add in shipping, box charges, tax… $115. Those are actual numbers, btw, just pulled up a common vendor. Fish was collected, stored, and shipped several times to get to this point. Stressed? Of course. Then, when the fish arrives, we place it in a sterile environment, without a working bio filter. Maybe add bottled bacteria… but still, a very unnatural environment, likely with at least trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite in the water. Additional stress. Then we dump in copper, prazipro, whatever we decide is the best cocktail to eliminate whatever disease or parasite this fish might have. More stress.

And we wonder why so many fish die.

Or, we take our chances, dump it in, and roll the dice on infecting every fish in the tank.

There has got to be a better way. Some way to get healthy fishes. Corals without flatworms. Macro algae that isn’t full of aiptasia or bubble algae.

Is it just money? Hey, it’s not a cheap hobby. I get that. If I could pay $200 for that yellow tang and KNOW that it was healthy, I’d be happy to do that.

Now, what do we need to do to make that happen? Honestly, I don’t know, BUT I guarantee, the way to solve the problem is NOT to start by accepting that this is just the way things are.

 

[35ppt]

Why do we accept that vendors selling sick animals is normal?

Many marine hobbyists these days are recommending a full quarantine, including prophylactic treatment for every animal we buy. Why? Because we’ve accepted that a large percentage of the animals we purchase are going to be sick.

Say I want a yellow tang: Quick trip to the internet… $70. Add in shipping, box charges, tax… $115. Those are actual numbers, btw, just pulled up a common vendor. Fish was collected, stored, and shipped several times to get to this point. Stressed? Of course. Then, when the fish arrives, we place it in a sterile environment, without a working bio filter. Maybe add bottled bacteria… but still, a very unnatural environment, likely with at least trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite in the water. Additional stress. Then we dump in copper, prazipro, whatever we decide is the best cocktail to eliminate whatever disease or parasite this fish might have. More stress.

And we wonder why so many fish die.

Or, we take our chances, dump it in, and roll the dice on infecting every fish in the tank.

There has got to be a better way. Some way to get healthy fishes. Corals without flatworms. Macro algae that isn’t full of aiptasia or bubble algae.

Is it just money? Hey, it’s not a cheap hobby. I get that. If I could pay $200 for that yellow tang and KNOW that it was healthy, I’d be happy to do that.

Now, what do we need to do to make that happen? Honestly, I don’t know, BUT I guarantee, the way to solve the problem is NOT to start by accepting that this is just the way things are.

I choose a third option. Put the incoming fish into a fully cycled tank that is a reasonable size and full of plastic plants and insert decorations. And I give them a few days to a week to settle in before treatment, unless of course there is something that needs immediate attention. /I also think it's important to match salinity and temp then drop the fish in, no drip.

As for getting healthy livestock, there are a few options for getting pre-quarantined fish. As for corals, you just have to be choosy with your vendors. I drive past two LFS on my way to the one I actually buy coral from.

 

[sharpimage]

Firstly, I agree with most of that. But a quarantined fish is going to go through rounds of medicine at your place or somewhere else. Be it copper, prazi or what not. What you are asking for, is for someone to do it for you. There are some that do that and the price of the fish is reflected in their pricing.

 

[Greybeard]

As for getting healthy livestock, there are a few options for getting pre-quarantined fish. As for corals, you just have to be choosy with your vendors. I drive past two LFS on my way to the one I actually buy coral from.

Many ways to skin a cat. I don't buy live animals without having seen them, personally. Risk is just too high. That's what I'd like to change!

 

[35ppt]

Many ways to skin a cat. I don't buy live animals without having seen them, personally. Risk is just too high. That's what I'd like to change!

I'm the same way. I live 10min from LAX and the LFS I go to is right next to fish row so I probably have better selection than most. I would love to see vendors do more about disease than subtherapeutic levels of copper...

 

[ThatTennesseeBeardedGuy]

Okay but what if a shop were to take 3 weeks before opening and start quarantining right off the bat. He would incorporate the cost into his prices. And then when he opened he would always have quarantined specimens. That way his orders come in get QT'd and he still has stock to sell. Now I know the start up cost is pretty high for this but, when isn't it? Or you could even make a deal with a wholesaler to only sell their livestock but pay them cost at sale. Not sure if many do this in such a risky venture, but sometimes someone may be able to talk a wholesaler into it? But the point is we do it at our houses why not at the fish store. I know it stresses them out but I hate seeing ich riddled tanks where everything is dead or dying because they won't fricking QT. Or get em from a trusted breeder. Stress and parasites have much less of a chance at being such an issue this way. I think it's an easily solvable problem, but nobody is willing to do it on their own end (take the cost).

 

[Humblefish]

Most people want everything on the cheap. And fish flippers shipping via wholesalers provide just that. Now maybe you get a fish that has been at the wholesalers a week + eating, or maybe you get one that was rebagged the very same day + hasn't eaten in a week or two. Whether you QT or not, starting point is everything! And the only thing that's going to rein the industry in and force them to do right by these animals is govt. regulation. The same way the puppy mills are slowly being phased out of existence.

 

[ThatTennesseeBeardedGuy]

Yeah but the government regulation would make it even harder for fish stores to service the communities, knowing the government, it would probably drive the costs way beyond what is feasible. I would say there is a middle ground. Where the hobbyist will need to start demanding the lfs QT or change how they do things. Also find new and innovative ways to QT and ship fish with less stress. Rather than the black and white iron fist of the government, who is so out of touch with most of the issues of the normal everyday American, let alone hobbyist. But, not getting political here. TBH fish mills would be way safer in this case. Since the main concern is getting away from the oceans and other diseases and parasites. Potentially wouldn't need QTing if they are all tank raised. Which would also drive costs down. Which is what sustainable aquatics does in Jefferson TN. And honestly they are an hour away from me, but that's where I will be buying all my fish from now on. The Quality is just unmatched.

 

[Humblefish]

Yeah but the government regulation would make it even harder for fish stores to service the communities, knowing the government, it would probably drive the costs way beyond what is feasible. I would say there is a middle ground. Where the hobbyist will need to start demanding the lfs QT or change how they do things. Also find new and innovative ways to QT and ship fish with less stress. Rather than the black and white iron fist of the government, who is so out of touch with most of the issues of the normal everyday American, let alone hobbyist. But, not getting political here. TBH fish mills would be way safer in this case. Since the main concern is getting away from the oceans and other diseases and parasites. Potentially wouldn't need QTing if they are all tank raised. Which would also drive costs down. Which is what sustainable aquatics does in Jefferson TN. And honestly they are an hour away from me, but that's where I will be buying all my fish from now on. The Quality is just unmatched.

Some hobbyists will demand QT fish, but most will not be willing to pay the higher cost of such. The other problem is many LFS owners have no idea how to properly QT fish, beyond just using copper + Prazipro. Sometimes you get hit with oddball diseases (e.g. bacterial infections) which can wipeout all the fish as quickly as velvet unless you know what you are doing. Also, parasites/worms which are resistant to common treatments are becoming more prevalent.

A more realistic approach IMO is for LFS to utilize tools which keep parasite populations under control, and then educate their customers on How to QT and/or how to manage diseases. Have everything in-store for QT (i.e. sell QT kits), and have UV, diatoms filters, oxydators and proper nutrition to sell for those who want to go that route. Push and promote it. Don't pretend like the fish you are selling are perfectly heathy when you know they are not. Honesty goes a long way with many folks, especially when we are surrounded by so many scams and unscrupulous business activity nowadays.

 

[siggy]

Why should a hobbyist pay triple for a clean fish. The onus is now on the person buying fish? It seems the diligence of the professional fish keeper as seen in the blogs and magazines over the past ten years has allowed the Sellers to place all the blame for their laxed handling and not Cleaning the system or fish, that is used or sold. Who makes the money? Both dry and live sellers. And its now the end users fault if all you fish die and you didn't buy a second system with all that's required to nuke the fish. Your fish died? You did it wrong. What would happen if a pet store sold puppies, rabbits, and reptiles that were sold with parasites and Viruses. The wholesale houses and pet stores should be required to sell clean fish, after all they are crossing borders and state lines.

 

[fish farmer]

Why should a hobbyist pay triple for a clean fish. The onus is now on the person buying fish? It seems the diligence of the professional fish keeper as seen in the blogs and magazines over the past ten years has allowed the Sellers to place all the blame for their laxed handling and not Cleaning the system or fish, that is used or sold. Who makes the money? Both dry and live sellers. And its now the end users fault if all you fish die and you didn't buy a second system with all that's required to nuke the fish. Your fish died? You did it wrong. What would happen if a pet store sold puppies, rabbits, and reptiles that were sold with parasites and Viruses. The wholesale houses and pet stores should be required to sell clean fish, after all they are crossing borders and state lines.

This is my rant. I work in a state trout hatchery where we are required to follow disinfection protocols, etc. we are not allowed to stock clinically diseased fish, etc, etc. The trout eggs we sell to private growers are disease free...we go so far to regulate our local growers on who they can get eggs from. You can't just got to another state and bring in fish/eggs without approval. FWIW we have a pretty extensive list of banned hobby fish, native US fish, animals, etc, although our Fish Health Pathologists haven't touched the "disease aspect" of the hobby.....yet, but we educate people about not stocking aquarium fish in state waters.

My job is to grow healthy disease free fish, I went to school to do this and proceeded to get more education through similar jobs to do this. It is not a rich persons career, I make about $62,000 a year before taxes at 24 years deep in a mostly secure job. The things I do daily are necessary for fish heath and should be required at all levels of this industry.

Do wholesalers/flippers/big pet have actual biologists or fish specialists on staff? Shouldn't they?

I've seen strides in some grow out of species like regal tangs...this should be the industry standard and be something of pride to sell healthy animals.

 

[ScottR]

FWIW my LFS gets fish straight from the ocean so it hasn’t changed hands a bunch of times. Usually the fish are healthy looking. However the clowns and wrasses are usually caught using cyanide which weakens them and makes it hard to keep. But to be honest I have had great success with my fish from this one LFS. It’s my thought that many fish are being traded around and changing hands so many times that it weakens and stresses them. That’s why they’re so prone to ich. I have rarely ever seen ich in a fellow hobbyist tank, nor have I ever dealt with it firsthand.

Something to think about is: why do hobbyist deal with ich so much but you never see it in the ocean? 20 years ago or so, I used to catch my own fish for my tank. Never even knew what ich was. Only heard about it when I got back in the hobby.

 

[Biokabe]

Why should a hobbyist pay triple for a clean fish. The onus is now on the person buying fish? It seems the diligence of the professional fish keeper as seen in the blogs and magazines over the past ten years has allowed the Sellers to place all the blame for their laxed handling and not Cleaning the system or fish, that is used or sold. Who makes the money? Both dry and live sellers. And its now the end users fault if all you fish die and you didn't buy a second system with all that's required to nuke the fish. Your fish died? You did it wrong. What would happen if a pet store sold puppies, rabbits, and reptiles that were sold with parasites and Viruses. The wholesale houses and pet stores should be required to sell clean fish, after all they are crossing borders and state lines.

The consumer always pays for everything. If they didn't, then the retailer wouldn't make money, the wholesaler wouldn't make money, and we'd have no one to buy from. That's not just in aquarium land - that's everything. If a business has an expense, that goes into the cost of the item. If they don't sell the item above cost, they don't make money. If they don't make money, they can't pay their overhead. If they can't pay their overhead, they go out of business.

In the case of aquarium fish, retailers can basically go one of two ways: They can do all the quarantining and treatment themselves, and pass on those extra costs to the consumer. Or, they can eschew those extra steps and pass on the savings to the consumer. Given how we, the consumers, have responded to these pricing signals, wholesalers and retailers have offered us fish at cheaper rates in return for expecting us to bear the risk of fish deaths. It's simple economics: Either have the retailer bear the expense, and compensate them for it, or bear the expense yourself in exchange for lower pricing. The hobby as a whole has chosen lower pricing. If you yourself would rather have someone else do the quarantining for you, that service is available at a premium price from specialized retailers.

 

[Silver14SS]

Is it just money? Hey, it’s not a cheap hobby. I get that. If I could pay $200 for that yellow tang and KNOW that it was healthy, I’d be happy to do that.

Now, what do we need to do to make that happen? Honestly, I don’t know, BUT I guarantee, the way to solve the problem is NOT to start by accepting that this is just the way things are.

I think it is primarily money. How many threads on this forum are there complaining about pricing of everything? It seems like it's at least one a week.

The fish in my tank are either captive bred or from a vendor who quarantines/conditions. I definitely paid a premium, but it was worth it to me. It is much less of a hassle for me to spend extra money on "healthy" fish than it is for me to have a quarantine setup and do it myself.

I take a similar approach with corals by buying aquacultured from trusted sources. Again, a higher price, but worth it to me to avoid pests.

TLDR - vote with your wallet and support vendors who supply healthy, pest free livestock

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

From what I’ve read it seems like wholesalers in Europe run much cleaner shops and have sanitization periods so that consumers in Europe have fewer problems with disease. Are they regulated there? Who forces them to do that or do they just choose to because they care more? And how do we make that happen here? Not everybody wants fish that have been treated with copper but if the wholesalers kept their shops cleaner then it could help with the problem somewhat.

 

[siggy]

The fish in my tank are either captive bred or from a vendor who quarantines/conditions. I definitely paid a premium, but it was worth it to me. It is much less of a hassle for me to spend extra money on "healthy" fish than it is for me to have a quarantine setup and do it myself.

Now that's a way to make more money. Sell fish from the clean and maintained system.
USDA should test those systems (Wholesale) and if parasites and viruses are found, shut it down and clean the systems. Do that ONCE or twice, and we all would see a significant improvement. Yes prices would increase but not to the extent you're paying for a guy to bust his tail when he gets home from work to QT your fish. Or your wife busting your tail because you have another tank in the house taking all your/her time.

 

[siggy]

In the case of aquarium fish, retailers can basically go one of two ways: They can do all the quarantining and treatment themselves, and pass on those extra costs to the consumer. Or, they can eschew those extra steps and pass on the savings to the consumer. Given how we, the consumers, have responded to these pricing signals, wholesalers and retailers have offered us fish at cheaper rates in return for expecting us to bear the risk of fish deaths. It's simple economics: Either have the retailer bear the expense, and compensate them for it, or bear the expense yourself in exchange for lower pricing. The hobby as a whole has chosen lower pricing. If you yourself would rather have someone else do the quarantining for you, that service is available at a premium price from specialized retailers.

I disagree, Back in the 80's I had a Prized Discus tank, I was Paying $45 for quarter sized fish and up to 100 for lemon sized
fish. About the same as today, When my LFS sold me bad fish and wiped out my tank HE made it right! Today fish are cheaper and the fishes' health is on you. BTW I switched to salt back then and SW fish prices was about the same as today.
I think
BTW WERE is this fish store with clean fish? I will spend 1K tomorrow

 

[Fourstars]

quarantine is just extra step/stress in a less then idea environment. I’ve been in the hobby since 1976 and I’ve never guarantied with almost 100% survival rate. Heathy tank, with good flow and always have live food to fatten them up fast! Their natural immune system will kick in. Most of my loss is in the first day which is from poor collection methods.

Of course I don’t condone this type of behavior.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Why do we accept that vendors selling sick animals is normal?

Many marine hobbyists these days are recommending a full quarantine, including prophylactic treatment for every animal we buy. Why? Because we’ve accepted that a large percentage of the animals we purchase are going to be sick.

Say I want a yellow tang: Quick trip to the internet… $70. Add in shipping, box charges, tax… $115. Those are actual numbers, btw, just pulled up a common vendor. Fish was collected, stored, and shipped several times to get to this point. Stressed? Of course. Then, when the fish arrives, we place it in a sterile environment, without a working bio filter. Maybe add bottled bacteria… but still, a very unnatural environment, likely with at least trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite in the water. Additional stress. Then we dump in copper, prazipro, whatever we decide is the best cocktail to eliminate whatever disease or parasite this fish might have. More stress.

And we wonder why so many fish die.

Or, we take our chances, dump it in, and roll the dice on infecting every fish in the tank.

There has got to be a better way. Some way to get healthy fishes. Corals without flatworms. Macro algae that isn’t full of aiptasia or bubble algae.

Is it just money? Hey, it’s not a cheap hobby. I get that. If I could pay $200 for that yellow tang and KNOW that it was healthy, I’d be happy to do that.

Now, what do we need to do to make that happen? Honestly, I don’t know, BUT I guarantee, the way to solve the problem is NOT to start by accepting that this is just the way things are.

evening , as always glad to see you around

Great point. Imagine if it was dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, etc being sold as sick. It was left up to the buyer to cure any disease or risk monetary loss. Some fish cost a lot more than a rescue mix breed for sure.

Problem is there are hurdles on our hobby that are hard to overcome. Except for captive breeding there is not much control on exposure to disease, and that is only while at the breeder. Like @ScottR (his names not Scott) said, some are still using cyanid to this day. That Brings us to another hurdle of how can we know a healthy fish? We can look for outward signs but there is always that potential for a dormant parasite or cyanide poising.

I think, and it’s too late now, but at the beginning we stopped buying animals when they were dying from LFS it would pressure stores to take steps to practice better husbandry. But, there is still no guarantee the buyer doesn’t throw that new fish into 1.43 SG water with 5000 No3 and the fish melts instantly and still blames it on the store.

I agree 100% with you, unfortunately I think the ship Has sailed on an industry where the exception is a fish that needs meds.

 

[Indytraveler83]

I think volume overall may be part of the problem too. I didn't collect saltwater fish 20 or 30 years ago, and I doubt nearly as many of us did.

It's the same oceans, the same environment and the same populations we are trying to pull from. To make matters worse, natural reefs are degrading and bleaching out fast.

Is it any wonder that if we place more demand on a natural system than before, especially one that's more damaged, the product will be worse?