Greybeard's Rant on vendors selling sick animals

Waste not want not. We're talking about vendors providing diseased poor quality animals. So how are you suppose to get better quality if the supplier/end user both view these animals as flushable? Doing the same thing repeatedly expecting different results isnt a bright way of doing things.
This has been an issue for at least the last 20 years. It isn't about waste, it is about profit. Stores that offer better quality/QT'd animals tend to go out of business because the bulk of people shop on price alone. The store that was mentioned earlier with bag lot sales - they are packed every week as people try to score...and then come back the next week to try again after the animal dies. I am gearing up for one more attempt at getting the trade to 'do better', but don't expect much, and it is likely that local regulation will be the only thing that might help.

I am not expecting different results. Look at the system for how it is, and see if you can find vendors you think are more trustable, and give them your money.
 
Yeah but the government regulation would make it even harder for fish stores to service the communities, knowing the government, it would probably drive the costs way beyond what is feasible. I would say there is a middle ground. Where the hobbyist will need to start demanding the lfs QT or change how they do things. Also find new and innovative ways to QT and ship fish with less stress. Rather than the black and white iron fist of the government, who is so out of touch with most of the issues of the normal everyday American, let alone hobbyist. But, not getting political here. TBH fish mills would be way safer in this case. Since the main concern is getting away from the oceans and other diseases and parasites. Potentially wouldn't need QTing if they are all tank raised. Which would also drive costs down. Which is what sustainable aquatics does in Jefferson TN. And honestly they are an hour away from me, but that's where I will be buying all my fish from now on. The Quality is just unmatched.
As I understand it, Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN only sell to brick and mortar retailers. Do you mean you will source from them through your LFS?
 
Look at the system for how it is, and see if you can find vendors you think are more trustable, and give them your money.

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As I understand it, Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN only sell to brick and mortar retailers. Do you mean you will source from them through your LFS?

Here's their retail store:
 
Thank you for sharing this.

You're welcome! I've purchased from them, great transaction with healthy livestock. Pacific East Aquaculture is another great source for captive bred fish, not sure if they have any of the SA products though.
 
As I understand it, Sustainable Aquatics in Jefferson City, TN only sell to brick and mortar retailers. Do you mean you will source from them through your LFS?
They supply a lfs called the Coral Reef in jefferson city, but they also have an online store through them as well that has all their products and livestock. Besides I was just more using them as an example of beneficial practices in the hobby. But that is how I will be getting all my fish in the future.
 
They supply a lfs called the Coral Reef in jefferson city, but they also have an online store through them as well that has all their products and livestock. Besides I was just more using them as an example of beneficial practices in the hobby. But that is how I will be getting all my fish in the future.
They mostly have clowns as of rn but they are in the works for breeding tangs to hopefully do the same thing that they accomplished with their vast variety of clowns.
 
Yeah but the government regulation would make it even harder for fish stores to service the communities, knowing the government, it would probably drive the costs way beyond what is feasible. I would say there is a middle ground. Where the hobbyist will need to start demanding the lfs QT or change how they do things. Also find new and innovative ways to QT and ship fish with less stress. Rather than the black and white iron fist of the government, who is so out of touch with most of the issues of the normal everyday American, let alone hobbyist. But, not getting political here. TBH fish mills would be way safer in this case. Since the main concern is getting away from the oceans and other diseases and parasites. Potentially wouldn't need QTing if they are all tank raised. Which would also drive costs down. Which is what sustainable aquatics does in Jefferson TN. And honestly they are an hour away from me, but that's where I will be buying all my fish from now on. The Quality is just unmatched.

I'm glad you posted about the company Sustainable Aquatic. i did a quick look through their site. These are the practices that should be happening in the hobby and hope they do well. I did a quick read in their white pages of the cyanide use in the hobby.....I'm amazed any wild caught fish are allowed in the U.S.
 
I'm all for acquiring livestock from sustainable/captive bred resources. I'll definitely add them to my short list. Thank you.
 
The store that was mentioned earlier with bag lot sales - they are packed every week as people try to score...and then come back the next week to try again after the animal dies.

Look at the system for how it is, and see if you can find vendors you think are more trustable, and give them your money.

That's just not smart. Fool and their money I suppose.

Luckily I have a local importer I trust. It just blows my mind people doing this.
 
So I find it really funny that people on this forum claim that they would be willing to pay more for quarantined fish when that is just not true.

Most will not, but not all.

Ask any member that knows me, I am a devoted caretaker to my pets.

I will personally vouch for this. You are one of the most conscientious people I know, especially when it comes to the well-being of any animal under your care.
 
That's just not smart. Fool and their money I suppose.

Luckily I have a local importer I trust. It just blows my mind people doing this.
It has been going on for over 20 years.
 
I see that you’re from Westchester NY. Which LFS does offer quarantined fish for sale in our area that you trust? Do you still quarantine/observe before you add them to your display tank?
Greetings. I live in White Plains. I use House of Fins in Greenwich,Ct. it’s 20 minutes from me. They quarantine everything as practice. I never quarantine as they are complete pros and understand what is needed. Very up to date. I’ve had one fish die in my tank and it was a challenging fish to keep. My mistake. Where are you?
 
My husband's best friend had stage 4 leukemia. For over a year we made trips out of state to see & emotionally support him, his wife & kids. He was treated in 3 different states. We thought he might beat it at some point. But he did not. We traveled to MD Anderson to be with wife & kids as they took him off life support.
So my decision not to do QT myself, was the responsible choice. I have a tank set up so I can do a hospital tank at any time. I have a cabinet with emergency fish meds. But my fish are pets & they provide us comfort. Our tank has provided us a lot of solace. If I had not used a responsible QT vendor, I would still not have fish. So be careful in making blanket statements that if you don't QT yourself, you should not have a tank. Ask any member that knows me, I am a devoted caretaker to my pets.

Agree with this totally.

The must QT/no one will pay more for a fish that has been QT’d was a strong statement. i saw the thread to be focused on the vendor side and what they should be doing to sell healthier animals not on the whole QT debate.

I also don’t qt. My new build has live rock, sand and fish that I all put in within 2 days of filling the tank with water. straight from ocean, LFS to tank. No problem, key is sourcing the healthy critters.
 
It's about money and skill.
Space is at a premium in a store, and enough space for proper quarantine takes a lot of rent money.
Next comes knowledge.
I'm gonna tell you something guaranteed to make a lot of people mad.
Most fish store owners have no business being in the fish business.
That's right, I said it.
These clods can't tell one disease from another, can't tell you the correct way to cure one once identified, and frankly don't even care.
In a more perfect world, the pet industry would be regulated in the same way the SCUBA industry is regulated, with both shops and hobbyists having to pass tests and be certified. We'd see some tremendous improvement in short order.

Anyway, sometimes you might find a shop owned by someone who really knows what's what, but if you do it's still likely that his shop doesn't spend much effort on quarantine for one simple reason. His competition doesn't.

Clean fish cost more than dirty ones.
Customers demand lower prices.
Mixing clean fish with dirty ones makes all the effort and expense a total waste.

My old shop was a big one. 6600 gallons. A full third of the store was just quarantine. That's 2200 gallons worth of tank space full of fish that were not for sale. It was a BIG expense. I did it, though, for the reputation it would give me. I should point out that I'm a bit of an ichthyopathologist who knows the full ins and outs of proper quarantine. ( I was also the Senior Aquarist at a public aquarium where quarantine HAD to be perfect and fully effective )

To put it plainly, I offered my customers the very best fish that money could buy, and the word spread quickly. I had customers coming from over 150 miles in every direction.
However, I didn't have enough of them.
My local customers didn't appreciate everything I did for them. A few did, sure, but most of them continued to shop at competing stores with lower prices. Naturally, the fish I sold them got infected by the dirty fish they bought elsewhere, and everything was for naught.

If the internet was a big thing back then, I suppose I could have made it as a mail-order place. Foster-Smith / Liveaquaria dotcom wasn't around yet.

Anyway, I learned the hard way that customers cherish low price above all else. They SAY they don't, but when given the choice, they'll pick the cheap dirty fish that "look okay" over even guaranteed to be clean ones which cost a dollar more.
 
Anyway, I learned the hard way that customers cherish low price above all else. They SAY they don't, but when given the choice, they'll pick the cheap dirty fish that "look okay" over even guaranteed to be clean ones which cost a dollar more.

I agree with almost everything you said except for this. Yes, it applies to the majority but not all. Some hobbyists understand the value of buying QT fish, and that buying on the cheap is not always a good deal in the long run. Are these few enough to sustain an emerging market? Will they be able to convince others this is the way to go? I have no idea; we shall see! One problem is that QT fish means different things to different people. And of course, some unscrupulous vendors are now trying to use QT as a catchphrase. A LFS copied my QT protocol word-for-word on their FB page, and then someone else took photos of them adding fish to their retail tanks directly from the wholesaler. :eek:
 
reading all peoples commands and I think what really needs to be done, yes copper prozi (don't put to much will KILL the fish) and put display tank water in qt plus sponges also before you put them in the tank do put them in Seachem ParaGuard for one hr.
 
I agree with almost everything you said except for this. Yes, it applies to the majority but not all. Some hobbyists understand the value of buying QT fish, and that buying on the cheap is not always a good deal in the long run. Are these few enough to sustain an emerging market? Will they be able to convince others this is the way to go?

I sure hope so! I had a great experience getting two wrasses from @Dr. Reef but more options are always good. It would be great to see the volume of something like Live Aquaria but with QT fish.
 
My tank is fallow right now after that cute pair of clowns I recently added from my LFS broke out in a disease and took out the rest of my fish. After this fallow period I plan to buy online from one of the hobbyist/vendors who quarantines diligently and sells healthy fish. I'd rather pay twice as much for healthy fish than have sick ones die on me and have to replace them later and hope for better luck. Higher purchase price up front, but much cheaper in the long run than buying twice (or three times, etc.)
 
I sure hope so! I had a great experience getting two wrasses from @Dr. Reef but more options are always good. It would be great to see the volume of something like Live Aquaria but with QT fish.

I'm trying to form a coalition of QT vendors, but lots of headwind coming our way. Bring it on! Just gonna make it that much sweeter when we finally achieve our goals! :)
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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