Hawaii ban is official.

[Tamberav]

Hey yeah I think it could be a world wide ban though won’t hurt to double check. I’m personally a fan of Zebrasoma though. .?

It would be the 'world'... it is not a ban of fish coming into the USA (They are from the USA )... it is a ban of them being collected/exported... so it means anywhere.

 

[Ross Petersen]

IMO this is a separate issue from livestock collection. All food fish die. Once an animal is harvested it doesn't matter what happens to it from an ecological management perspective.

This is not to say it doesn't matter what happens to live stock morally or even legally only that collection laws should have nothing to do with how an animal is treated after collection. If there were laws enforcing livestock living standards I would not object.

Laws against collection are misplaced frustrations from confused or ill intending individuals.

"Laws against collection are misplaced frustrations" - what published reputable data do you have to support this? How about healthy regulation - seeking to maintain diverse species populations at half their carrying capacity / maximum sustainable yield? I've spoken with dozens of marine biologists on this issue - we need to find more intentional balance in how we extract.

 

[Tamberav]

I have a 4” yellow tang, healthy as ever. I’ll sell him for $2K right now if anyone is interested

I am stocking up!! My GET RICH scheme!!

 

[Ross Petersen]

Some of the comments confuse me. People make comments like they don’t own any live stock, why are you even in hobby if collecting fish is immoral?(Rhetorical question) IMO the dent we make in nature is .000001% compared to amount of fish killed for food. I have seen pictures on here in the past that show mountains of tangs on fishing boats for food. People will always find a way to justify there opinions reefers and hippies alike.

One can be in the hobby and still advocate for sustainable harvesting methods - and even temporary closures if coral reefs are not doing well, as is the present day situation in many reefs.

 

[Reef_Obsessed]

I am stocking up!! My GET RICH scheme!!

 

[Brittanyjo]

This hobby has NO ONE to blame but the people in it for this closure, and all the future ones that will come to pass, or the eventual import bans from third world collection points.

The hobby collectively treats livestock as disposable dollar signs, and until the majority of end points for sales (LFS / online LFS) take livestock health seriously, stopping the "shoveling them out the door before they die" behavior, nothing will change. It's either they are the ones that ultimately force the needed change in the collection supply chain, or the government will take the easier option and just shut things down. Hobbyists cannot be trusted to do this as there are countless examples of consistently rewarding doing the wrong thing, because it's cheaper.

This hobby has some of the most insidious, immoral behavior condoned on the back of a dollar, and the entire industry has done little to nothing, instead reveling in the success of it. I don't blame the activists for painting a giant target on it.

Unfortunately this is true. I once bought a 25$ mandarin. One of the most beautiful creatures on this earth and it was amazing and beautiful. And I watched it die because I had no idea I was starving it.... so I bought another.... then another. You can hate me, but I was so young and stupid. I just couldn’t believe it was me.....

I am to blame, but .....

 

[Brittanyjo]

Some of the comments confuse me. People make comments like they don’t own any live stock, why are you even in hobby if collecting fish is immoral?(Rhetorical question) IMO the dent we make in nature is .000001% compared to amount of fish killed for food. I have seen pictures on here in the past that show mountains of tangs on fishing boats for food. People will always find a way to justify there opinions reefers and hippies alike.

Food and “to look at” is different. If my kids need food I’ll eat it. If it’s fir fun Someone should have a moral obligation to make sure it’s sustainable.
I’m suprised you just compared food and hobby. You have obviously never worried about food. (Hahaha neither have I, but at least I know there’s a difference)

 

[silvernblackr35]

Would you guys take someone seriously if they ate dog meat but told you that keeping dogs as family pets is immoral?

 

[Montiman]

"Laws against collection are misplaced frustrations" - what published reputable data do you have to support this? How about healthy regulation - seeking to maintain diverse species populations at half their carrying capacity / maximum sustainable yield? I've spoken with dozens of marine biologists on this issue - we need to find more intentional balance in how we extract.

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as possible while expressing not just a difference of opinion but a difference in outlook and ultimate world view. Frankly this is not the best format for expressing these differences but it is an important topic that more people in the hobby should engage in.

I got my first job working at an LFS while I was in college studying biology. I was initially planning on going into Medicine but I loved aquariums and loved working at the LFS. One day my boss made a comment about the large pachyseris colony in the shop display. "These corals are so easy to grow here but they are almost all gone from the reefs in SriLanka I used to dive on" I immediately felt an urge to stop focusing on med school and work to focus on animal conservation and ecology. I wanted my children to enjoy the same animals I did.

My experience getting a degree in ecology and conservation turned me off to the modern environmental movement more than any other experience possibly could.

In short I learned that professors with PHDs lived in a bubble world of credentials where an article published in a peer reviewed paper ment more than the experience of divers and collectors who had been practicing for sometimes as much as 40 years. Additionally this elitism led them to say things like we can't trust hobbyists to keep these animals only I can because of my special permit. All the while they regularly consulted private hobbyists for help in caring for their animals when they were at a loss.

My disrespect for academia only increased after working at a public aquarium and seeing some of the worst most unethical and I'll informed treatment of aquatic animals imaginable. Just because someone has graduated from a prestigious school with an ichthyology degree does not mean they know the slightest about how to care for animals in an aquarium. In fact many of the mentors I most respect in this hobby dropped out of school.

Whenever anyone insists upon only accepting information if it is supported by peer reviewed journals I immediately question this individuals sinserity. So often this is used as an attempt to dismiss those who haven't done their dues sucking up and going into debt to pay homage to intellectual institutions. Instead they left, started their own businesses came up with innovative new ideas and technology to share the ocean we all love with more people.

I have never seen a single studying showing any conclusive evidence that aquarium collection has led to any significant threat to Hawaiian reefs. I have spoken to numerous collectors who have collected at the same spots for decades and report finding the same number of fish now as before.

Additionally Hawaii has been highly regulated for years. Collection receives far more oversight than nearly anywhere else in the world.

More importantly this matches with what any ecology 101 class will tell you about coral reefs. Reefs are space limited. Fish reproduce in huge numbers and the only reason more larva don't survive is because there is such aggressive competition for habitable space. In fact I remember learning statistical modeling based on this premise as one of the only ways to show how it is possible for reefs to have such great diversity.

The collection needed to negatively impact reef fish density would have to be incredibly great given the ecosystems natural ability to fill empty space.

Given the magnitude of food fish collection and more importantly habitat reduction through environmental changes reducing the size of habitable areas, it makes no sense to focus on the aquarium industry.

After my experience I fundamental believe that academia and NGOs are more interested in raising money by spreading fear than solving problems.

After hearing professors tell me that studies showed that the factors with the greatest correlation with stake holder satisfaction with wildlife management were local controll and well defined property rights, I then heard the same professors insist that huge federal or international legislation was needed and that more land should be public owned and less private.

Never is the solution to trust the private collectors to purchase and manage their own collection rights. This has proven extremely successful in increasing stake holder satisfaction but it doesn't require academic funding or government regulations so why would intellectuals or politicians even consider it.

 

[Tamberav]

Food and “to look at” is different. If my kids need food I’ll eat it. If it’s fir fun Someone should have a moral obligation to make sure it’s sustainable.
I’m suprised you just compared food and hobby. You have obviously never worried about food. (Hahaha neither have I, but at least I know there’s a difference)

Our food system is not sustainable either due to environmental impacts and uses non-renewable resources. I mean think about it... creating the food we love to eat causes pollution, loss of some animals and environmental impacts and most of it is run by some sort of fossil fuel. The world seems to be on borrowed time.

But hey that just means make the best of now!

 

[Zionas]

Science: Exists.

These people and PETA (who don’t want us to have any fish at all): HOW DARE YOU?!!!!!

I swear some of these people are like the animal rights equivalent of the Westboro Baptists.

 

[HWY61]

Despite everything being in the works, never thought this day would come. Until we get enough Captive Bred specimens, goodbye Yellow Tangs, Kole Tangs, Convict Tangs, Lavender Tangs, Achilles, and many others.

I wonder what would be the future of Tangs for Zebrasoma and other fish.

What would be good alternatives for most people in the now indefinite absence of the Yellow Tang?

Wow, I didn’t even want a yellow tang until now. I was “too cool” for a common fish like that.

guess you don’t know what you really want until you can’t have it.

 

[Zionas]

Yes as with many other things. I can’t believe these groups are given so much free rein when resources are better concentrated into much more urgent and human-related issues. Makes me question complete freedom of assembly at times when issues like these are given precedence. I’m sure we’re all responsible fishkeepers and coral keepers so it hurts us the most.

I mean if I was looking from the lens of certain foreign countries (which in my case I’d be looking at democratic transition) and I came across this news sitting at my equivalent of the Oval Office? I’d probably be going.... Hmmm so this is where they choose to exercise their democratic rights, despite other much more pressing issues?

 

[Ross Petersen]

I am going to try to be as diplomatic as possible while expressing not just a difference of opinion but a difference in outlook and ultimate world view. Frankly this is not the best format for expressing these differences but it is an important topic that more people in the hobby should engage in.

I got my first job working at an LFS while I was in college studying biology. I was initially planning on going into Medicine but I loved aquariums and loved working at the LFS. One day my boss made a comment about the large pachyseris colony in the shop display. "These corals are so easy to grow here but they are almost all gone from the reefs in SriLanka I used to dive on" I immediately felt an urge to stop focusing on med school and work to focus on animal conservation and ecology. I wanted my children to enjoy the same animals I did.

My experience getting a degree in ecology and conservation turned me off to the modern environmental movement more than any other experience possibly could.

In short I learned that professors with PHDs lived in a bubble world of credentials where an article published in a peer reviewed paper ment more than the experience of divers and collectors who had been practicing for sometimes as much as 40 years. Additionally this elitism led them to say things like we can't trust hobbyists to keep these animals only I can because of my special permit. All the while they regularly consulted private hobbyists for help in caring for their animals when they were at a loss.

My disrespect for academia only increased after working at a public aquarium and seeing some of the worst most unethical and I'll informed treatment of aquatic animals imaginable. Just because someone has graduated from a prestigious school with an ichthyology degree does not mean they know the slightest about how to care for animals in an aquarium. In fact many of the mentors I most respect in this hobby dropped out of school.

Whenever anyone insists upon only accepting information if it is supported by peer reviewed journals I immediately question this individuals sinserity. So often this is used as an attempt to dismiss those who haven't done their dues sucking up and going into debt to pay homage to intellectual institutions. Instead they left, started their own businesses came up with innovative new ideas and technology to share the ocean we all love with more people.

I have never seen a single studying showing any conclusive evidence that aquarium collection has led to any significant threat to Hawaiian reefs. I have spoken to numerous collectors who have collected at the same spots for decades and report finding the same number of fish now as before.

Additionally Hawaii has been highly regulated for years. Collection receives far more oversight than nearly anywhere else in the world.

More importantly this matches with what any ecology 101 class will tell you about coral reefs. Reefs are space limited. Fish reproduce in huge numbers and the only reason more larva don't survive is because there is such aggressive competition for habitable space. In fact I remember learning statistical modeling based on this premise as one of the only ways to show how it is possible for reefs to have such great diversity.

The collection needed to negatively impact reef fish density would have to be incredibly great given the ecosystems natural ability to fill empty space.

Given the magnitude of food fish collection and more importantly habitat reduction through environmental changes reducing the size of habitable areas, it makes no sense to focus on the aquarium industry.

After my experience I fundamental believe that academia and NGOs are more interested in raising money by spreading fear than solving problems.

After hearing professors tell me that studies showed that the factors with the greatest correlation with stake holder satisfaction with wildlife management were local controll and well defined property rights, I then heard the same professors insist that huge federal or international legislation was needed and that more land should be public owned and less private.

Never is the solution to trust the private collectors to purchase and manage their own collection rights. This has proven extremely successful in increasing stake holder satisfaction but it doesn't require academic funding or government regulations so why would intellectuals or politicians even consider it.

Many great points. And I too share some frustration for aspects of academia - especially those that emphasize optics over substance. That said, there is a lot of good in science research and it would be nearsighted to cast this work off as fully misdirected and unequivocally inconsistent with the experiences of those who live around and depend on reefs. The latter folks (e.g., first nations and local fishers) are frequently reporting declining trends in coral reef health.

I don’t doubt for a second that larger variables are at play than the use of sustainable methods to extract fish (and corals) from reefs such as agricultural runoff causing eutrophication and disease, climate change, and well documented increases in pest species leading to declines in species richness and evenness.

I’m sure we would have a great coffee chat. No harm in having a different lens on things. We are all adults here sharing ideas on the oceans in our living rooms -and the real ones - that we love.

 

[Tamberav]

Wow, I didn’t even want a yellow tang until now. I was “too cool” for a common fish like that.

guess you don’t know what you really want until you can’t have it.

haha! I was going to stock a Tomini Tang but put a Kole Tang on hold just to be a cool kid if they never return. I figured yellows are captive bred but not Koles

One of my LFS still has a potters angel in stock...

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

I actually saw the opposite. No fish at all overrun bu Turf algea.

It looks like you took a shallow water picture of some algae and a turtle and you're applying it to the entire reef. Do you have your diving license or were you snorkeling?

 

[hds4216]

Frankly, the people here saying that the science is on their side when it comes to this issue are objectively incorrect. You don't get denied by the state Senate, state House, and unanimously rejected in your appeal by the Hawai'i Supreme Court and Hawaii’s Environmental Council without strong evidence that mismanagement is occurring, especially when you are on the side of the industry.

The fact is that most of the wild fish captured for aquariums are herbivorous reef-dwellers that coral reef ecosystems depend upon because they control algae growth that smothers corals. Studies have shown that reducing reef fish and shellfish diversity impairs a reef’s ability to respond to stresses or disturbances. Minimizing such impacts is vitally important as climate change and ocean warming and acidification threaten reefs.

I'm a doctoral student, so I've read a lot of scientific papers. The ones that people cite in opposition to this action are deeply flawed and rely on evidence with little no to external validation. I can clarify on this if desired. The fact is: The Yellow Tang population nearly doubled within four years of area closures in West Hawaii. Since these fish eat algae that otherwise smothers the reefs, this is a vital statistic.

For those saying Hawaii's system is well managed, that is also incorrect. It is better than systems in much of the rest of the Pacific, but that is saying almost nothing. Prior to the ban, Hawaii had the following system:

• To get a fish collecting permit, you just need to fill out an online application on the Hawaii Department of Land & Natural Resources (DLNR) website. The permit costs $50, and everyone is eligible. The DLNR has not placed any limits on the number of permits issued each year.
• The DLNR does not properly monitor reef collection areas for illegal activity. There are only three or four officers for the entire West Hawaii coastline and they must take care of land and sea conservation issues.
• Hawaii has a volunteer report system. So someone could be taking 5,000 fish a day, and reporting that they caught 73. And there's really no enforcement of that.
• Based on these stats, it's estimated that the number of fish reported is an underestimate of 2-5 times. So if they report 500,000 caught, the actual number is 1-2.5 million.

TL;DR: This ban is beneficial, scientifically sound, and unanimously agreed on by legislative and judicial bodies who are not predisposed to be kind to the environmental movement.

 

[Oregon Grown Reef]

"Laws against collection are misplaced frustrations" - what published reputable data do you have to support this? How about healthy regulation - seeking to maintain diverse species populations at half their carrying capacity / maximum sustainable yield? I've spoken with dozens of marine biologists on this issue - we need to find more intentional balance in how we extract.

"Dozens"

 

[Nickthebarber]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe Convict Tang will be off the list, we have HEAPS of them here in Australia.

 

[Bklynskandi]

Despite everything being in the works, never thought this day would come. Until we get enough Captive Bred specimens, goodbye Yellow Tangs, Kole Tangs, Convict Tangs, Lavender Tangs, Achilles, and many others.

I wonder what would be the future of Tangs for Zebrasoma and other fish.

What would be good alternatives for most people in the now indefinite absence of the Yellow Tang?

I'm gonna get as many white cheeks as I financially can lol - and if the budget allows, am achilles