Hawaii ban is official.

[gafoley]

Thing is, they aren't. You, or I, might disagree with their position, but labelling them as whackos means it's much harder to engage in any kind of constructive dialog.

That's probably true. Of course, given the deplorable survival rate of collected fish (10% .... maybe) it's hard to argue against 'their' view either compellingly or ethically.

Many of them practice gross hypocrisy. They'll look you in the face and tell you about all of the harm you're doing to the environment while at the same time using and enjoying the same things they claim are detrimental. They fly around the world (often private) to talk about carbon footprints of others, drive nicer cars than you, and complain about modern technologies causing toxic waste to be produced all while banging away on their computers and smart phones. I've run into these people and had conversations with them. They feel that fish will suffer from the same psychological effects that a human would from being held captive. I disagree with that notion but try convincing an anti-aquarium advocate of that. It's hard to have a constructive dialog with a person who has vastly different beliefs and experiences than you.

 

[gentlefish]

The Hawaii ban had been looming for a long time now. No surprise to anyone. During the past years, as an entity of reefers, we sadly missed the opportunity to steer against some misconceptions. In particular we failed to significantly decrease mortality due to shipping, stress, insufficient QT and husbandry. This could have significantly decreased collection and concerns raised against us.
We also have to learn to pay the price for quality. What if we pay 100 $ for a tank raised, disease free YT? It’s nothing over a period of well over 10 years.

 

[newfly]

I don’t live in Hawaii, I live in the state of Florida. Last July, here in south Florida, the harvesting of marine ornamental fish in Biscayne National Park was banned as well. Following the Red Tide incidents and massive fish and wildlife die off some years ago, the FWC, closed the possession of inshore species such as snook, redfish, and sea trout. The keys, are booked every year at the end of July for just 2 days of lobster mini season harvest with people from every state in the country. A lobster sanctuary was also established inside of Biscayne National Park. Restrictions are always gonna increase from here on, affecting small businesses and the economy in a world already compromised by COVID19 shutdowns and lock downs. Although, a slightly different subject, what is the opinion here? Should South Florida continue to increase restrictions of its marine resources, consequently affecting those that live here and those that come here?

I’m simply pointed out how democracy works. If you live in Florida , you can vote for representatives that support your views. I don’t live in Florida and if Floridian want to increase restrictions , I will respect that and give my business to someone/somewhere else. I’m not debating if the action is good or bad.

 

[ca1ore]

Many of them practice gross hypocrisy. They'll look you in the face and tell you about all of the harm you're doing to the environment while at the same time using and enjoying the same things they claim are detrimental. They fly around the world (often private) to talk about carbon footprints of others, drive nicer cars than you, and complain about modern technologies causing toxic waste to be produced all while banging away on their computers and smart phones. I've run into these people and had conversations with them. They feel that fish will suffer from the same psychological effects that a human would from being held captive. I disagree with that notion but try convincing an anti-aquarium advocate of that. It's hard to have a constructive dialog with a person who has vastly different beliefs and experiences than you.

This made me chuckle, not based on anything you wrote but because I found myself about to write an optimistically shaded rebuttal to your points. I’m about the most cynical person I know and have a poor opinion of humans generally. I think I’ll agree that you are probably right .....

 

[silvernblackr35]

I think it's time to get serious about getting an organized legal team going in favor of the hobby, imo this is just the beginning. I've seen a lot of squabbling going on lately amongst ourselves over unrelated trivial nonsense, including with some well-known and I guess you could say "respected figures" in the hobby. It's time to leave the ego's at the door, pool our resources, and focus on the real issue.

The well organized opposition isn't squabbling amongst themselves and isn't just about protecting Hawaii, they believe what we do is immoral and are going to continue to fight until the aquarium trade is ended completely. I'm sure 99% of people here agree that there are a lot of things we can improve on in the process from the point of collection all the way to them making it to our tanks and living a long and healthy life. This decision isn't about improving on any of those things though it's a BAN. They don't want to negotiate, they want to dictate.

 

[landlubber]

This guy has a bunch of captive bred yellow tangs and they look great. He also has some juveniles in his frag tank that are paler.

i've seen nice captive bred examples myself along with plenty of other species successfully bred outside of the ocean.
i'm hesitant to believe one anecdote especially with tangs who can look completely different depending on their mood.

 

[shred5]

Biota yellow tang wont be 100.00 after this and all other tangs prices will go way up.
Word has it already the tangs in the supply chain have been bought up and prices have doubled.
I can not even imagine the size Biota would have to become to supply the world just with yellow tang loss from Hawahii. Maybe they can chime in on how many they produce a year or could produce but I bet less than 1 percent of what comes out of Hawaii.
I can honestly see all tang prices going over 500.00 and possible way over that.
As they climb it will put pressure on other fish in the hobby increasing their prices.
Other areas will not pick up the slack because restriction are getting tighter there too.

I just do not think people realize the amount of yellow tangs that came just from Hawaii.

There is close to 1/2 a million.

The Truth About Yellow Tang Collecting in Hawaii | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Along with the common clownfish, yellow tangs are one of the most iconic and familiar reef fish, on the reef and in our home aquariums. Because of this status there is a lot of attention paid to this…

reefbuilders.com

 

[shred5]

Hawaii's Aquarium Fishery Is Shuttered, Pending Review - CORAL Magazine

What has happened to Hawaii's marine aquarium fishery is profound. One could argue it serves as both a game plan for those opposed, and a real-world warning for those who continue to participate in the collection and distribution of wild fishes and corals within the aquarium trade.

www.reef2rainforest.com

 

[9975]

That's a good article @shred5. It does seem more of a knee jerk reaction but there is little that the smaller community of fish lovers can do at this point.

 

[fish farmer]

I think it's time to get serious about getting an organized legal team going in favor of the hobby, imo this is just the beginning. I've seen a lot of squabbling going on lately amongst ourselves over unrelated trivial nonsense, including with some well-known and I guess you could say "respected figures" in the hobby. It's time to leave the ego's at the door, pool our resources, and focus on the real issue.

The well organized opposition isn't squabbling amongst themselves and isn't just about protecting Hawaii, they believe what we do is immoral and are going to continue to fight until the aquarium trade is ended completely. I'm sure 99% of people here agree that there are a lot of things we can improve on in the process from the point of collection all the way to them making it to our tanks and living a long and healthy life. This decision isn't about improving on any of those things though it's a BAN. They don't want to negotiate, they want to dictate.

You bring up a good point, much like when other places were banned, if it was a large industry leader people would have their team of laywers.

So that brings it to money. How is what I feel is a disorganized hobby with many players big and small become an organized collective that not only has respect in the political stage but also adequately funded to take on such tasks?

Licensing, taxes on equipment, etc? Much like how the recreational fisheries (hobby) in the U.S generate revenue, with government oversight at the state and federal level of course.

 

[gafoley]

I'd love to hear from a lawyer regarding the fairness of this ban when compared to commercial fishing and recreational fishing (for food). All 3 activities result in the same thing: A fish or invert is removed from the wild never to return. So why is it ok for people to remove fish with the intent to kill them for food, but somehow aquarium fishers are detrimental to the environment? At least the fish we pull have a chance at living, while the other fishermen are certainly going to kill them. It makes no sense to allow fishing for food but not for an aquarium, at least based on the argument given by anti-aquarium groups. I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't this sound discriminatory and a violation of the equal protection clause? I'd appreciate some legal feedback. Thanks.

 

[Ippyroy]

I like the ban. It should increase the amount of money for captive breeding. Reefing is a niche hobby and people willing to spend the extra money on CB is an even smaller percentage. Painful as it may be to pay more now, it will in the future pay higher dividends by making the hobby more sustainable.
How many fish die from shipping and the wholesalers? I have heard only 10% survive. If this number is true, then for every Yellow Tang in your tank, 9 died. If you have 3, 27 other fish died. If the one you owned dies, and you buy another one, 19 would have died for the one in your tank.
Too many hobbyist seem more interested in saving money. Too many are always looking for a way to save a buck. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. The same concept can applied here. ORA and Biota can make more money and therefore invest it into breeding more species and more numbers. Other people might become more interested in building a facility and also engage in it. This will eventually bring the prices down.

 

[Ippyroy]

I'd love to hear from a lawyer regarding the fairness of this ban when compared to commercial fishing and recreational fishing (for food). All 3 activities result in the same thing: A fish or invert is removed from the wild never to return. So why is it ok for people to remove fish with the intent to kill them for food, but somehow aquarium fishers are detrimental to the environment? At least the fish we pull have a chance at living, while the other fishermen are certainly going to kill them. It makes no sense to allow fishing for food but not for an aquarium, at least based on the argument given by anti-aquarium groups. I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't this sound discriminatory and a violation of the equal protection clause? I'd appreciate some legal feedback. Thanks.

People have to eat. That is comparing apples to oranges. How many fish die for the one in your tank? THe percentage of fish killed for eating and are eaten is astronomically higher than the percentage of ornamental fish that die from harvesting for tanks.
It is also not OK to dictate a person's diet. I person should be allowed to eat what they want. Stop comparing the 2 things.

 

[gafoley]

I like the ban. It should increase the amount of money for captive breeding. Reefing is a niche hobby and people willing to spend the extra money on CB is an even smaller percentage. Painful as it may be to pay more now, it will in the future pay higher dividends by making the hobby more sustainable.
How many fish die from shipping and the wholesalers? I have heard only 10% survive. If this number is true, then for every Yellow Tang in your tank, 9 died. If you have 3, 27 other fish died. If the one you owned dies, and you buy another one, 19 would have died for the one in your tank.
Too many hobbyist seem more interested in saving money. Too many are always looking for a way to save a buck. Sometimes you have to spend money to make money. The same concept can applied here. ORA and Biota can make more money and therefore invest it into breeding more species and more numbers. Other people might become more interested in building a facility and also engage in it. This will eventually bring the prices down.

You may like the ban on its face, but I can assure you that the ban won't stop at wild caught animals. They'll come after captive breds as well eventually. Their problem with our industry/hobby has little to do with wild populations. In reality, they think keeping any live animal in captivity is cruel and should be stopped. I've had conversations with these types before. They feel that fish suffer from captivity mentally just as humans would.
Also, I'm not sure where your shipping survival numbers come from. In my experience working with importers in Los Angeles I can assure you that survival rates from shipping are much higher than 10%. If that were the case, every wholesaler and importer would be bankrupt. The freight usually costs much more than the fish itself and is non-refundable should you suffer massive losses as you suggested (unless the airline screws up and pays any claim you file).
I support captive breeding but it will never be able to deliver the quantity or variety that the wild caught sources can. And higher prices will vastly limit the number of people that can afford the hobby. That will have a ripple effect throughout the industry and limit choices.

 

[gafoley]

People have to eat. That is comparing apples to oranges. How many fish die for the one in your tank? THe percentage of fish killed for eating and are eaten is astronomically higher than the percentage of ornamental fish that die from harvesting for tanks.
It is also not OK to dictate a person's diet. I person should be allowed to eat what they want. Stop comparing the 2 things.

That's your argument? People have to eat? We buy lots of things as consumers that we don't need but instead want. You don't need a car, a house, a computer, nice clothes, etc. But we buy those things because they help fulfill our lives in different ways. If you want to live with just basic necessities being met you're welcome to do so. The Amish do that everyday. But I don't see a problem with keeping most marine animals in our hobby. Not only does it educate, but it gives people a real appreciation for things that can't readily be seen in person. I used to take care of an aquarium at a children's hospital. The kids loved that tank and marveled at it daily. They were always full of questions and comments. I think aquariums serve a much needed purpose.

 

[shred5]

That's your argument? People have to eat? We buy lots of things as consumers that we don't need but instead want. You don't need a car, a house, a computer, nice clothes, etc. But we buy those things because they help fulfill our lives in different ways. If you want to live with just basic necessities being met you're welcome to do so. The Amish do that everyday. But I don't see a problem with keeping most marine animals in our hobby. Not only does it educate, but it gives people a real appreciation for things that can't readily be seen in person. I used to take care of an aquarium at a children's hospital. The kids loved that tank and marveled at it daily. They were always full of questions and comments. I think aquariums serve a much needed purpose.

That is what people do not get.
This hobby gives economic value to the reef. It gives us a reason to manage and protect it.
If no one knows what a yellow tang is why would anyone want to protect it. No one will care.
Thing is allot of money comes from the hobby to protect the reef. Lots of money is donated from people in this hobby to restore the reefs.

You may like the ban on its face, but I can assure you that the ban won't stop at wild caught animals. They'll come after captive breds as well eventually. Their problem with our industry/hobby has little to do with wild populations. In reality, they think keeping any live animal in captivity is cruel and should be stopped. I've had conversations with these types before. They feel that fish suffer from captivity mentally just as humans would.
Also, I'm not sure where your shipping survival numbers come from. In my experience working with importers in Los Angeles I can assure you that survival rates from shipping are much higher than 10%. If that were the case, every wholesaler and importer would be bankrupt. The freight usually costs much more than the fish itself and is non-refundable should you suffer massive losses as you suggested (unless the airline screws up and pays any claim you file).
I support captive breeding but it will never be able to deliver the quantity or variety that the wild caught sources can. And higher prices will vastly limit the number of people that can afford the hobby. That will have a ripple effect throughout the industry and limit choices.

That was actually tried a while ago with some coral and it will come up again.
They tried to make it so you have to have a license to own coral. You could only own coral you already owned. It would have made aquaculture illegal too. There would be not trading or selling of coral.
The law would have made it comply illegal to import the corals on this list or own.

This was all started by one man Snorkel Bob.

After Hawaii they will move to other areas.

 

[Ippyroy]

You may like the ban on its face, but I can assure you that the ban won't stop at wild caught animals. They'll come after captive breds as well eventually. Their problem with our industry/hobby has little to do with wild populations. In reality, they think keeping any live animal in captivity is cruel and should be stopped. I've had conversations with these types before. They feel that fish suffer from captivity mentally just as humans would.
Also, I'm not sure where your shipping survival numbers come from. In my experience working with importers in Los Angeles I can assure you that survival rates from shipping are much higher than 10%. If that were the case, every wholesaler and importer would be bankrupt. The freight usually costs much more than the fish itself and is non-refundable should you suffer massive losses as you suggested (unless the airline screws up and pays any claim you file).
I support captive breeding but it will never be able to deliver the quantity or variety that the wild caught sources can. And higher prices will vastly limit the number of people that can afford the hobby. That will have a ripple effect throughout the industry and limit choices.

The biggest problem with this hobby is trying to find accurate numbers on just about anything. This hobby has virtually no regulations. The percentage of ornamental fish that survive capture to a tank is very low. The actual percentage is a very large unknown, hence the Judge demanding the studies before allowing it to reopen.
Claiming that they will come after the fish in my tank is the same as saying one side is trying to take my guns. This is a complete fallacy. You can't get rid of an amendment nor even change it without 2/3 of the states agreeing. The reef keeping hobby needs to figure out a way to regulate itself or the government will. Self regulating rarely if ever works. Government regulations usually go too far. If hobbyists in greater numbers would demand more humane husbandry and truly get behind captive breeding a lot of pressure would be removed.
There are many problems in Florida with invasive animals that were directly created by people releasing animals that have destroyed natural habitats. A few major issues have also happened in California. Hawaii has several non native animals that are a plague now. The ecosystem is a very fragile thing. We have to work hard to protect it. Pythons are in Florida. They will never go away. Mongoose in Hawaii will never go away. The list goes on. Lake Trout in Yellowstone Lake will never go away. All of these animals cause irreparable damage. A lot of these issues were created by bad pet owners. It only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch.
Instead of complaining about the problem, we as a group should be trying to figure out a better way. There are many ways we can improve the hobby and make it more accessible and sustainable. We need to figure it out. Most corals were brown and the ones you could keep alive were few and far between only 30 years ago. The vast number of corals today come from someone else tank. Some corals are being out back on reefs after only surviving in in a hobbyist's tanks. These are the stories we need to be sharing. The success stories of captive breeding need to be shared more. We need to lift up the good positive stories more, and stop complaining about the bad things like the ban that just happened. Instead of complaining about the issues with dry rock, we need to figure out how to make dry rock and man mande rock better. It can and will be done.

 

[Brittanyjo]

Would you guys take someone seriously if they ate dog meat but told you that keeping dogs as family pets is immoral?

Great comment. I talked with my family about this thought provoking comment.... I would indeed think that person was crazy!

One small difference is that dogs were bred for companionship, fish are taken from one location and our ornamental fish may out compete fish used for food....

 

[ca1ore]

Also, I'm not sure where your shipping survival numbers come from. In my experience working with importers in Los Angeles I can assure you that survival rates from shipping are much higher than 10%. If that were the case, every wholesaler and importer would be bankrupt. The freight usually costs much more than the fish itself and is non-refundable should you suffer massive losses as you suggested (unless the airline screws up and pays any claim you file).

Just keep in mind that you are looking at just one part of the supply chain. How many fish that are collected make it back to shore, and how many die in those initial holding tanks. How many die on their way to the wholesalers. How many die on their way to LFS. How many die at the LFS. Lastly, how many survive in reef tanks beyond a year. Not sure there are reliable numbers but a friend of mine who ran a LFS for many years always said he thought that the overall survival numbers were well below 10%. If you think about ALL the steps in the SC, it's hard to make a cogent argument to the contrary.

 

[landlubber]

Just keep in mind that you are looking at just one part of the supply chain. How many fish that are collected make it back to shore, and how many die in those initial holding tanks. How many die on their way to the wholesalers. How many die on their way to LFS. How many die at the LFS. Lastly, how many survive in reef tanks beyond a year. Not sure there are reliable numbers but a friend of mine who ran a LFS for many years always said he thought that the overall survival numbers were well below 10%. If you think about ALL the steps in the SC, it's hard to make a cogent argument to the contrary.

a person could also argue the mortality of the fish that never leave the ocean too. i think we would be foolish to believe every animal is living a full life without incident.
The bottom line is life isn't easy in either environment and it's difficult to know for sure how detrimental the hobbyists effect is and raises ethical questions especially when some species can be successfully captive bred.