Heaters

[BeanAnimal]

^^ This ^^ I will never run a tank without a controller. 2 oversized titanium heaters for redundancy connected to an inkbird for me. The inkbird are affordable and have been extremely reliable for me. They have several models. I have the wifi version and I also have one that has heat and cool so I can use it for heat and tank fan (no chiller). Good bang for the buck if you don't want a full blown controller like an apex which I do not want.

You should never "oversize" heaters. A properly sized heater will run ~80% or more of the time on the coldest room day of the year.

I wouldn't worry about the time alarm/safety feature. It is not a reliable indicator of anything.

The controller should control the temp - the thermostats on the heaters set (physically by feel, not dial) just above the controller's set point when the tank reaches temp.

 

[Dr4gula.f32]

Sunday morning the Fluval heater exploded in the sump. I woke up to a low temp alarm. A small, dime sized broken piece off the tip. The chrome lining is gone off the tube. The heating element is slightly rusty. Everything in the tank seems fine though. 200w eheim gets delivered today. I did a 5g water change to help with the heave metals.

Looking at amperage draw, the eheim regulates much better.

The fluval will turn on and off constantly. 5 on, 5 off. The eheim just stays on till the water is up to temp. Big differences between the 2 and I highly recommend the eheim over the fluval to anyone else interested.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Sunday morning the Fluval heater exploded in the sump. I woke up to a low temp alarm. A small, dime sized broken piece off the tip. The chrome lining is gone off the tube. The heating element is slightly rusty. Everything in the tank seems fine though. 200w eheim gets delivered today. I did a 5g water change to help with the heave metals.

A heater should NEVER be fully submerged. The head should always be dry. The temp probe from the controller should be in the same compartment of the sump as the heater and should be just slightly upstream.

I prefer to plumb heaters through a bulkhead and "cord grip" style fitting.

Heaters

 

[Jasonak]

Ive used every heater from most expensive to least and they all have failed rather quickly.
I now run two heaters hooked to my Apex for my reef tank. With the fresh water tank I use inkbird with one heater.

 

[Dr4gula.f32]

A heater should NEVER be fully submerged. The head should always be dry. The temp probe from the controller should be in the same compartment of the sump as the heater and should be just slightly upstream.

I prefer to plumb heaters through a bulkhead and "cord grip" style fitting.

Heaters

Both of those heaters say they can be fully submerged. They both show "minimum water level' marks which is less than an inch from the top. I've had a fluval fully submerged for over a year in my other tank.

 

[exnisstech]

You should never "oversize" heaters. A properly sized heater will run ~80% or more of the time on the coldest room day of the year.

I wouldn't worry about the time alarm/safety feature. It is not a reliable indicator of anything.

The controller should control the temp - the thermostats on the heaters set (physically by feel, not dial) just above the controller's set point when the tank reaches temp.

I run titanium heaters that have no built in control. I'm from the belief that too much is just enough so I over size my heaters and use an external controller. Been doing it that way for years with no problems. Many different ways to reef

 

[fodsod]

I use eheim and love them. Also I would never have a tank without a heater controller. In my eyes it's the most important piece of equipment you can have. I use the one from inkbird.

100% agree with both the Eheim heaters and Inkbird controller. Both are super dependable and a good way to build in reliability and protection.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I run titanium heaters that have no built in control. I'm from the belief that too much is just enough so I over size my heaters and use an external controller. Been doing it that way for years with no problems. Many different ways to reef

People don't wear seatbelts for years with "no problems"... It would be a fallacy to equate that with safe or logical in context to the probability of injury or death. Whistling past the graveyard, broken clocks, dumb luck, etc.

The fact that your heaters have no built in control and are redundant AND oversized quadruples your probability of cooking your tank.

-In your "redundant" setup the redundant part is the least likely to fail. Heaters without thermostats are extremely unlikely to fail. Titanium envelopes further decrease the probability. Keeping their heads dry (the part where the cord goes in) equates to almost no probability of failure (easily a decade or more until the heating elements will fail due to thermal cycling.

-given they are both the same age, titanium and headless and run in parallel (heating on the same cycle) chances are they will both fail at or close to the same time (heating elements thermal cycling).

-The controller is the most likely point of failure in this setup - either due to power surges or temp probe failure. The failure mode of the temp probe is almost certainly LOW not HIGH, resulting in your dual oversized heaters cooking your tank very quickly.

If you want meaningful redundancy, tghen you would be better off with two controllers with 1 properly sized heater per controller. We can debate if each heater should be able to run the tank by itself of some 60% of the load. We would use math (time to overheat vs underheat with 1 heater) to determine the safest and most applicable setup.

Again, there is absolutely zero reason or logic to have an oversized heater. All that you are doing is ensuring that if there is a fail-on situation, that the tank quickly cooks.

Oversized heaters are also prone to overshoot (even if run by a PID).

I could go on, but yes there are many different ways of reef. Not all of them logical, smart or recommended.

 

[BeanAnimal]

100% agree with both the Eheim heaters and Inkbird controller. Both are super dependable and a good way to build in reliability and protection.

A Ranco commercial ETC controller is many times more reliable than an inkbird.

I would NEVER use a glass or plastic envelope heater, both are prone to breaking due to thermal cycling.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Both of those heaters say they can be fully submerged. They both show "minimum water level' marks which is less than an inch from the top. I've had a fluval fully submerged for over a year in my other tank.

It doesn't matter what they say... you should never submerge them. Seals fail (thermal expansion and contraction each cycle), salt water conducts and the heaters explode.

If you keep the heater head dry and don't use the internal thermostat for control, failure rates drops to near 0.

If you use the internal thermostat, failure rates a extremely high in a timespan of 1-3 years, depending on the number of on/off cycles.

 

[PotatoPig]

I can set the desired temp down to .1 increments. But the hysteresis setting is only in 1* increments. This is an ITC 308 NON-WIFI. I got it last week.

When the temp goes low, one of my BTA's shrinks up really small and starts to wander around

FWIW, the 306A is Wi-Fi enabled and has 0.5F ranges. I got mine before going on vacation for a few days, and it paid for itself immediately when it let me know the heaters weren’t keeping up with the house with heating turned down so I could get a friend to come doing and turn the house heating back up a few degrees.

 

[exnisstech]

People don't wear seatbelts for years with "no problems"... It would be a fallacy to equate that with safe or logical in context to the probability of injury or death. Whistling past the graveyard, broken clocks, dumb luck, etc.

The fact that your heaters have no built in control and are redundant AND oversized quadruples your probability of cooking your tank.

-In your "redundant" setup the redundant part is the least likely to fail. Heaters without thermostats are extremely unlikely to fail. Titanium envelopes further decrease the probability. Keeping their heads dry (the part where the cord goes in) equates to almost no probability of failure (easily a decade or more until the heating elements will fail due to thermal cycling.

-given they are both the same age, titanium and headless and run in parallel (heating on the same cycle) chances are they will both fail at or close to the same time (heating elements thermal cycling).

-The controller is the most likely point of failure in this setup - either due to power surges or temp probe failure. The failure mode of the temp probe is almost certainly LOW not HIGH, resulting in your dual oversized heaters cooking your tank very quickly.

If you want meaningful redundancy, tghen you would be better off with two controllers with 1 properly sized heater per controller. We can debate if each heater should be able to run the tank by itself of some 60% of the load. We would use math (time to overheat vs underheat with 1 heater) to determine the safest and most applicable setup.

Again, there is absolutely zero reason or logic to have an oversized heater. All that you are doing is ensuring that if there is a fail-on situation, that the tank quickly cooks.

Oversized heaters are also prone to overshoot (even if run by a PID).

I could go on, but yes there are many different ways of reef. Not all of them logical, smart or recommended.

My favorite quote from my mother in law. "you beleive what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe"

Between fresh and salt I've been been doing this for over 30 years and have never lost a tank from a failed heater / controller going too high or low. I appreciate your viewpoint but will continue my method even if isn't logical, smart or recommended.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My favorite quote from my mother in law. "you beleive what you want to believe and I'll believe what I want to believe"

Between fresh and salt I've been been doing this for over 30 years and have never lost a tank from a failed heater / controller going too high or low. I appreciate your viewpoint but will continue my method even if isn't logical, smart or recommended.

Belief driven by confirmation bias or ignorance of the physics, failure modes or their probability does not equate to facts, science or math. Regardless of what your mother-in-law taught

You are most certainly free to run your aquarium in any manner you wish. I responded to your post with information in hopes of informing others as to why your method is not a good idea, even if you have done it for 30 years.

Happy Reefing!

 

[fodsod]

A Ranco commercial ETC controller is many times more reliable than an inkbird.

I would NEVER use a glass or plastic envelope heater, both are prone to breaking due to thermal cycling.

OK you've got my attention and while you might be correct......

How does one support a claim of many times more reliable and prone to break due to thermal cycling? Are you in a position that allows you access to actual real life failure rate statistics and direct comparison data the rest of us don't see? Just curious when I see statements made in a way that are meant to be indisputable.

 

[Dr4gula.f32]

You can see the difference in how the Fluval operates, and the Eheim with these 2 pics. The Fluval is constantly on and off. The Eheim stays on till temp is reached.

 

[BeanAnimal]

OK you've got my attention and while you might be correct......

How does one support a claim of many times more reliable and prone to break due to thermal cycling? Are you in a position that allows you access to actual real life failure rate statistics and direct comparison data the rest of us don't see? Just curious when I see statements made in a way that are meant to be indisputable.

Research, education, accumulated direct experience and observation combined with simple applied science and logic. That is, the physics governing the thermal, mechanical and electrical operation of the devices (and their control systems) considered from a failure mode and probability standpoint.

I researched and wrote (~15 years ago) an article on heater technology and failure modes.

These are extremely simplistic devices that are (with few exceptions) made with cheap components and materials.

The classic aquarium heater consists of a glass tube with a heating element and a bi-metal thermostat protected by a rubber or epoxy (sometimes with silicone) seal.

Common failure modes:
-Thermal Shock glass breakage - running the heater dry or partially dry.
-Thermal Shock glass breakage - glass envelope touching a poorly conducting surface that creates hot-spots. This may include the suction cup rings.
-Bi-metal strip metal fatigue - inevitable. The failure mode when it breaks may be fail-open or short.
-Contact welding - each and every cycle creates an arc that degrades the contacts.
-Seal degradation - The glass envelope and seal expand and contract at different rates resulting in (2) general failures. The first being an arcing short and the second a small amount of water that turns to steam and bursts the envelope.

We can get into failure modes of different types of control circuits as well. Relays, SCRs, MOSFETS and other devices and circuit topologies fail for different reasons and in different states. These failure modes would apply to heaters with digital controls on-board or digital controllers and their circuit and output switching method.

 

[BeanAnimal]

You can see the difference in how the Fluval operates, and the Eheim with these 2 pics. The Fluval is constantly on and off. The Eheim stays on till temp is reached.

Different types of control logic and location (both the heater and its control and sensing mechanism) will dictate how the element cycles on and off.

Example:
A powerful heater with a sensitive (fast acting) sensor may cycle on and off as the heater quickly heats the close by water quickly, and cycles off before that warmer water is fully flushed away and it cycles back on.

The same heater in higher flow or even with the sensor facing the opposite direction may not oscillate as much (or at all).

This is (again) where heater sizing comes into play and part of the reason not to oversize heaters.

 

[GARRIGA]

Been running Ebo Jagger on and off since 2015. Has worked for me flawlessly not just holding temps but longevity. However, main display and upcoming QT system will each house a pair of titanium style heaters with redundant controllers. Considering Helio setup.

 

[fodsod]

Research, education, accumulated direct experience and observation combined with simple applied science and logic. That is, the physics governing the thermal, mechanical and electrical operation of the devices (and their control systems) considered from a failure mode and probability standpoint.

I researched and wrote (~15 years ago) an article on heater technology and failure modes.

These are extremely simplistic devices that are (with few exceptions) made with cheap components and materials.

The classic aquarium heater consists of a glass tube with a heating element and a bi-metal thermostat protected by a rubber or epoxy (sometimes with silicone) seal.

Common failure modes:
-Thermal Shock glass breakage - running the heater dry or partially dry.
-Thermal Shock glass breakage - glass envelope touching a poorly conducting surface that creates hot-spots. This may include the suction cup rings.
-Bi-metal strip metal fatigue - inevitable. The failure mode when it breaks may be fail-open or short.
-Contact welding - each and every cycle creates an arc that degrades the contacts.
-Seal degradation - The glass envelope and seal expand and contract at different rates resulting in (2) general failures. The first being an arcing short and the second a small amount of water that turns to steam and bursts the envelope.

We can get into failure modes of different types of control circuits as well. Relays, SCRs, MOSFETS and other devices and circuit topologies fail for different reasons and in different states. These failure modes would apply to heaters with digital controls on-board or digital controllers and their circuit and output switching method.

OK, so based on your back ground, knowledge and experience, in your opinion, what would be your specific choice/choices for heater/heaters and controller combo?

You stated a controller earlier but that was in comparison to the Inkbird unit. What would be your choices if you were building a new tank right now?

 

[BeanAnimal]

The Helios is interesting - based on PTC elements instead of resistive. I am not sure of the quality of the PTCs they use or their heat curve. I would assume it is set close to 78F - and unsure what means they use to adjust otherwise.