Help!!! KNO3 solution

[jda]

There are some, but they support the basics for growth and color... low N and P, NSW alk and calcium levels and lots of daylight spectrum. Nobody wants to hear that stuff anymore. Dr. Holmes-Farley's P and N articles have links to awesome studies on actual acropora that show decreased calcification rates with even slightly elevated rates of either, yet most will not believe it or do not know about them since they are not in a BRSTv Video.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Corals can take up nitrogen from very, very low nitrate and ammonium concentrations. Adding nitrate maybe causes more harm to the corals than good.

 

[O'l Salty]

IMO dosing NO3 is your last resort if any other method doesn't work. Feeding more and skim less/off with fewer WC Is the first thing you should do and wait a month or two, pale corals won't die so be patient. Dosing NO3 will bring in some nasty algae and cyano and can go out of hand pretty quick.

N is 2 and P is .07 with no algae issues at all.

 

[O'l Salty]

This really is rocket science. I've seen gorgeous tanks with high nutrients and gorgeous tanks with ULN. I've added pairs of corals only to watch one prosper and the other wither away. That's what makes this hobby such a challenge. Every reef tank has a unique ecosystem and what works for one won't work for the other.

 

[xiaoxiy]

Dr. Holmes-Farley's P and N articles have links to awesome studies on actual acropora that show decreased calcification rates with even slightly elevated rates of either, yet most will not believe it or do not know about them since they are not in a BRSTv Video.

Newer studies have actually shown that elevated phosphate concentrations (0.5mg/L) significantly increased overall Acropora muricata growth rates when compared to lower phosphate conditions (0.09mg/L) over the course of ~100 days. There was significant increases in growth in terms of coral length and coral weight: almost 3x increases in growth! The study was conducted under 2x 400W USHIO 10K bulbs, supplemented with 2x 160W VHOs. Nitrate levels were overall low in the study, reading at approximately 0.1-0.2ppm.

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

 

[ZaneTer]

Newer studies have actually shown that elevated phosphate concentrations (0.5mg/L) significantly increased overall Acropora muricata growth rates when compared to lower phosphate conditions (0.09mg/L) over the course of ~100 days. There was significant increases in growth in terms of coral length and coral weight: almost 3x increases in growth! The study was conducted under 2x 400W USHIO 10K bulbs, supplemented with 2x 160W VHOs. Nitrate levels were overall low in the study, reading at approximately 0.1-0.2ppm.

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

I think this is a great example of why we should question conventional wisdom. What holds true today may not be so true tomorrow. Thank you for sharing. On a side note are you chinese? Just guessing from your username.

 

[jda]

Again, not a great study - for phosphate. Did they happen to test the growth rates with P at .01, like NSW? If so, the NSW would have likely crushed it.

.09 to .50 is not the same thing as even .01 to .09. Nobody has to keep their alk and calcium low at .09 or else their growth will push through the tissue and burn tips. If you need a study to know that NSW parameters rockets growth, then I might suggest some more experience. Again... if you don't like the color and prefer the richer/darker look, then that is different than growth. Also, again... nobody is talking about ULNS here... just NSW levels or LNS. Ultra Low is it's own beast that is best left to nearly nobody.

This is a fine study to observe and understand, but it does not scale for phosphate.

What is fascinating, however, is that it does seem to show that nitrate is not a limiting factor in low concentrations - just like all of the old studies and the natural acropora reefs show. ...so will anybody read the cliff notes on this study and stop dosing stump remover? They could and it would be justified science in addition to the many reefer accounts.

 

[ZaneTer]

Still in the habit of making assumptions?
I don’t see where anyone stated that natural sea water doesn’t grow corals well. I did however see someone showing a study that could point to that natural seawater may not be the optimal nutrient mix for growth.

Because a study doesn’t fit your agenda you instantly disregard it instead of taking a step back to reconsider what you know. A group of scientists have taken the time and effort to perform and document a study. What have you done that entitles you to attempt to belittle anyone that doesn’t follow your exact path of thinking?

 

[jda]

Experience and the ability to understand that they did not test natural seawater conditions... and some basic math that .01 is not equal to .09. You will get here if you stay in the hobby long enough...there are a few dudes every year that recycle these arguments, take staunch stance and then back off after they get a wider breath and depth of experience. I also know that your barebottom tank with concete rock is likely shared by very few people and techniques from your tank should not be used by many others once you look past the surface.

I have been around for two decades of these same arguments. Based on past experience, you will feel differently after a few years or be out of the hobby based mostly on a myriad of middling results and there will be a few new hobbyists with web-based knowledge that cannot see how most studies do not actually represent what is happening in their tanks.

I am not assuming that that tests at .50 down to .09 are not related .01. It is an empirical fact that these are not equal.

 

[xiaoxiy]

I think this is a great example of why we should question conventional wisdom. What holds true today may not be so true tomorrow. Thank you for sharing. On a side note are you chinese? Just guessing from your username.

Yeah! I was originally born in China but have lived a majority of my life in the states.

Here's a study on Acropora longicyathus, where the authors grew sub-colonies in patches of reef in the GBR. They compared control patches to patches with NH4 enhancement, and patches with PO4 enhancement. They found that the corals under phosphate enhancement showed statistically significant, higher linear extensions than the control. Interestingly, these differences were only found during the summer and spring seasons.

Growth response of the reef coral Acropora longicyathus to elevated inorganic nutrients: do responses to nutrients vary among coral taxa?

Note, I feel like this paper has less strength than the previous paper I quoted in a few main ways.
1) the difference observed in growth, although statistically significant, was relatively low
2) It's hard to predict what effects of elevating phosphate can do to the microbiome of plot reef and the indirect effects this can have on coral growth.
3) There are a lot more variables introduced when you conduct a study out in the ocean
4) Phosphate levels weren't constantly elevated. To my understanding, they were spiked intermittently.

Although JDA makes the point that 0.01ppm phosphate =/= 0.09ppm, I think it's silly to completely disregard the findings of the study because of this alone. Moreover, quite a few hobbiest have shown us that it is possible to grow phenomenal acropora reefs in settings with significantly elevated phosphates, one of them being Rich Ross.

Also, the source that I quoted in post#12, is a recently published evidence-based textbook, based off of current primary literature in the field of marine aquaculture. The authors surmise that to a certain extent increased nutrients seems to enhance coral growth rates.

 

[ZaneTer]

Experience and the ability to understand that they did not test natural seawater conditions... and some basic math that .01 is not equal to .09. You will get here if you stay in the hobby long enough...there are a few dudes every year that recycle these arguments, take staunch stance and then back off after they get a wider breath and depth of experience. I also know that your barebottom tank with concete rock is likely shared by very few people and techniques from your tank should not be used by many others once you look past the surface.

I have been around for two decades of these same arguments. Based on past experience, you will feel differently after a few years or be out of the hobby based mostly on a myriad of middling results and there will be a few new hobbyists with web-based knowledge that cannot see how most studies do not actually represent what is happening in their tanks.

I am not assuming that that tests at .50 down to .09 are not related .01. It is an empirical fact that these are not equal.

Not once in this thread did I advocate anyone running their system like mine. Again, you like to make assumptions.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of their experiment which was to determine the effects of elevated phosphate on the growth rate of their chosen coral. To that end they produced interesting findings. It is also beginning to look like they are not alone in their findings.
You have a habit of trying to cram your opinion down other people’s throats as though they are facts. Wake up. They aren’t.

 

[ZaneTer]

Yeah! I was originally born in China but have lived a majority of my life in the states.

Here's a study on Acropora longicyathus, where the authors grew sub-colonies in patches of reef in the GBR. They compared control patches to patches with NH4 enhancement, and patches with PO4 enhancement. They found that the corals under phosphate enhancement showed statistically significant, higher linear extensions than the control. Interestingly, these differences were only found during the summer and spring seasons.

Growth response of the reef coral Acropora longicyathus to elevated inorganic nutrients: do responses to nutrients vary among coral taxa?

Note, I feel like this paper has less strength than the previous paper I quoted in a few main ways.
1) the difference observed in growth, although statistically significant, was relatively low
2) It's hard to predict what effects of elevating phosphate can do to the microbiome of plot reef and the indirect effects this can have on coral growth.
3) There are a lot more variables introduced when you conduct a study out in the ocean
4) Phosphate levels weren't constantly elevated. To my understanding, they were spiked intermittently.

Although JDA makes the point that 0.01ppm phosphate =/= 0.09ppm, I think it's silly to completely disregard the findings of the study because of this alone. Moreover, quite a few hobbiest have shown us that it is possible to grow phenomenal acropora reefs in settings with significantly elevated phosphates, one of them being Rich Ross.

Also, the source that I quoted in post#12, is a recently published evidence-based textbook, based off of current primary literature in the field of marine aquaculture. The authors surmise that to a certain extent increased nutrients seems to enhance coral growth rates.

I am on a project in China at the moment.

Well done on finding these articles. They make for a very interesting discussion point. Some may try to argue that running higher than NSW doesn’t represent natural coral growth. The truth is our tanks are a very poor imitation of the ocean. We don’t have all of the phytoplankton or zooplankton that would make keeping and growing corals easier.

I believe we should be looking into ways to maximise the growth of corals within our captive systems. Personally I will be trying to perform a similar experiment on my tank when I return home. I will be able to quantify the results by measuring the alkalinity demand. I intend to try to find the preferred PO4 for my tank. I don’t believe my results will be useful to anyone else, purely because of how differently each tank is stocked with coral species.

 

[xiaoxiy]

I am on a project in China at the moment.

Well done on finding these articles. They make for a very interesting discussion point. Some may try to argue that running higher than NSW doesn’t represent natural coral growth. The truth is our tanks are a very poor imitation of the ocean. We don’t have all of the phytoplankton or zooplankton that would make keeping and growing corals easier.

I believe we should be looking into ways to maximise the growth of corals within our captive systems. Personally I will be trying to perform a similar experiment on my tank when I return home. I will be able to quantify the results by measuring the alkalinity demand. I intend to try to find the preferred PO4 for my tank. I don’t believe my results will be useful to anyone else, purely because of how differently each tank is stocked with coral species.

That's awesome!

I don't think using alkalinity consumption will be a very good direct measure of coral growth, given that there are many other organisms in our tank that uptake alkalinity readily, such as coraline algae.

Along the lines of the discussion about coral growth rates in the ocean, here's a published paper on hard coral growth rates at two mariculture sites in Singapore! First step in the restoration of a highly degraded coral reef (Singapore) by in situ coral intensive farming

 

[ZaneTer]

Another great read!

I agree that alkalinity wouldn’t be the ideal method of quantifying growth rates. Unfortunately I am only home for 2 weeks out of every 14. The rest of my time is spent in Kunming. Had I been at home I would have weighed some of my frags on a weekly basis.

 

[xiaoxiy]

Another great read!

I agree that alkalinity wouldn’t be the ideal method of quantifying growth rates. Unfortunately I am only home for 2 weeks out of every 14. The rest of my time is spent in Kunming. Had I been at home I would have weighed some of my frags on a weekly basis.

Hey that's where I was born! I'm flying down to Kunming in late May for a 2 week vacation!

 

[ZaneTer]

What a coincidence!

I return to Kunming at the end of May. If you fancy a beer then send me a message.