HELP! Lost 3 fish in 2 days :(

melypr1985 · Oct 27, 2015

Here is info on Acriflavine:
Acriflavine: I have no first-hand experience with this medication, so everything I know about it comes from one LFS (treating Brooklynella), Google Scholar or other literature. It supposedly is effective against protozoans, bacterial infections and external fungal diseases; however Brook & Uronema are the only two I would bank on. It also is supposedly “reef safe”, so long as it is not mixed with any other medication (very important!)

How To Treat - Follow the directions on the label of whatever product you are using. Acriflavine is often mixed with other medications; howeverAcriflavine-MS is the pure form (and most likely to be “reef safe.”)

Pros - Alternative treatment for Brooklynella & Uronema (useful in locales where formalin is banned); possibly “reef safe.”

Cons/Side Effects - Acriflavine is a “new” medication (to me), so it’s full range of effect is not completely understood. Same goes for possible side effects.

That said, I would not put it in your DT. I still think it is velvet so acriflavine wouldn't work for that. Cloroquine phosphate or copper is the med to use for that. In the end, you have to decide what you want to treat for as they will require different meds.

Your HOB filter and other equipment are fine, you'll want to soak your filter media (I use Sechem Matrix for this which is a ceramic media that looks like white and grey rocks) or simple sponge block in the bacteria for a while (min. of a few hours) before putting it in the filter. You can add your fish right after that. Make sure you have the ammonia badge because your test kits wont work with the meds in the water. Keep plenty of fresh saltwater available for water changes as needed. * Its very important to have something in the filter for the bacteria to colonize on/in.

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

So we've got the 30 gallon tank up and running, with water mixed, filter running, heater running, with no filter media as all we have is a carbon type filter. We will look into a bio ball or something.

Bio-Spira hasn't been purchased yet but we'll get it then, and still trying to figure out which medicine to order.

Once we get the gobies over to the QT tank, should we treat it and the DT with the medicine or just the DT?

I guess I'm just a little confused and want to make sure that what I'm doing is actually the correct approach.

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

Also, do any of the recommended meds have any negative impact on crabs or snails? The plan is to leave them in the DT unless we need to move them to the QT tank as well...

Thank you!

jadwv2210 · Oct 27, 2015

Copper for sure will kill any invertebrate life and can only be used in a quarantine tank. Be sure not to put any rock from your DT into a tank that has been treated with copper as the copper will leach into the rock and then back into any other tank it's put into which will kill inverts.

melypr1985 · Oct 27, 2015

I wouldn't put any meds in your DT at all. It's not worth the risk if you have a QT. There has been a lot of different opinions on what it is you have there. Without also having pictures it's hard to tell you what to use for sure. Here is the info for both brook and velvet. You'll have to read both and assess what you think it is. These will tell you how to treat accordingly. I hope this helps.

courtesy of Humblefish:
Brooklynella:

Symptoms – This is most often seen in clownfish, but it can afflict any fish. The fish’s skin will appear to be peeling or sloughing off, oftentimes causing excessive white mucous to form around the affected area(s).

Treatment options - Formalin bath, followed by additional formalin baths (as needed - but give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths). You can use formalin in a QT (at a much lower concentration than the bath), but great care must be taken to provide plenty of gas exchange as formalin will quickly deplete the water of oxygen. For this reason, doing baths is the safer option as the fish can be pulled from the formalin if showing signs of distress. Formalin-MS is preferred, as that contains 37% formaldehyde. However, in a bind, any medication containing formalin (ex. Quick Cure) is better than nothing. Alternative treatments for brook include metronidazole (ex. Seachem MetroPlex) and acriflavine (ex. Acriflavine-MS). A freshwater dip may provide temporary relief if you are unable to locate any of the aforementioned medications right away.

Velvet (Amyloodinium):

Symptoms - Because velvet can be such a fast killer, key behavioral symptoms will often prelude visible ones. A fish with velvet may breathe heavy, seek relief by swimming into the flow of a powerhead and act reclusive (velvet makes them sensitive to light).

If visible symptoms do manifest; velvet appears the same as ich, except the fish will usually be covered in “dust.” This dust may look gold colored if viewed at the right angle and under the right spectrum of light. Velvet is often misdiagnosed as ich and is the main “tank killer” in our hobby. It can wipe out all your fish in less than 72 hours and cannot usually be “managed” as ich sometimes is.

Treatment options - Chloroquine phosphate is the treatment of choice for velvet, but copper also works if symptoms are caught early on. Tank transfer and hypo does notwork with velvet. A freshwater dip or formalin bath is recommended before treatment begins, due to the severity of this disease; however these would only provide temporary relief and will not eradicate velvet.

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

Looks like we are going to order some Bio-Spira, an ammonia patch, and the Acriflavine as we've seen several references talking about using Acriflavine to treat velvet as well. If not, how difficult is it to get Chloroquine phosphate? Also, once we get the two fish out of the display tank, it'll be only crabs and snails in the display tank, 2 gobies in the QT, so how long do we leave the the DT fishless to hopefully cure the velvet? Also, I'm assuming we go no lights, and just 2-3 days between feedings and not every day feeding whenever we feed the crabs and snails in the DT.

melypr1985 · Oct 27, 2015

Kory Miller said:
Looks like we are going to order some Bio-Spira, an ammonia patch, and the Acriflavine as we've seen several references talking about using Acriflavine to treat velvet as well. If not, how difficult is it to get Chloroquine phosphate? Also, once we get the two fish out of the display tank, it'll be only crabs and snails in the display tank, 2 gobies in the QT, so how long do we leave the the DT fishless to hopefully cure the velvet? Also, I'm assuming we go no lights, and just 2-3 days between feedings and not every day feeding whenever we feed the crabs and snails in the DT.

CP requires a prescription from a vet and is (i hear) expensive. You can also use Copper to treat velvet. If you have any corals in your tank then run it as normal with lights and all, only feeding every couple of days. Fallow time for velvet is 6 weeks. You can go 76 days and be sure that there is nothing in your tank parasite wise.

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

No corals, just fish and inverts... looks like it'll be copper or acriflovine.. any reocmmendations on which copper to use?

melypr1985 · Oct 27, 2015

I used cupramine with great success. You'll need the right test kit for that type of copper- seachem is a good choice.

Humblefish · Oct 27, 2015

I'll admit I'm kinda lost in this thread.

Are you planning on treating the DT or in a QT?

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

I think I'm lost too.. I think the plan right now is to treat the QT because i'm thinking the cupramine will probably hurt the inverts in the DT? Unless we move all tank inhabitants to the QT, treat the DT and move back after 76 days?

Someone help..... haha

melypr1985 · Oct 27, 2015

It got kinda crazy and confusing. That happens with so many cooks in the kitchen. Using copper you should only treat the fish and do it in a QT. Leave all your inverts in the Display. Going fallow only means to take the fish out. Inverts stay in.

Humblefish · Oct 27, 2015

melypr1985 said:
It got kinda crazy and confusing. That happens with so many cooks in the kitchen. Using copper you should only treat the fish and do it in a QT. Leave all your inverts in the Display. Going fallow only means to take the fish out. Inverts stay in.

^^This. However, I would administer a 5 min FW dip plus acriflavine bath on each & every fish just before they enter the QT. Then treat with copper for 30 days in the QT. Observe after that to make sure no symptoms return.

While going fallow, leave all corals/inverts in the DT. DO NOT add any chemicals to your DT.

Kory Miller · Oct 27, 2015

How difficult is it to do the FW dip? I'm not going to lie, it really scares me just a bit to do this. Any hints / tips? Thanks again, you guys all rock!!

Humblefish · Oct 27, 2015

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

Kory Miller · Oct 28, 2015

Just tested water parameters in the DT

Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrate - 40 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
Alkalinity - 180 ppm
PH - 7.8
Specific Gravity was at 1.023
Temp 77.4

Kory Miller · Oct 29, 2015

Unfortunately we lost the shark nosed goby this afternoon

The QT is up, salinity is sitting between 1.024 and 1.025, temp is around 77. I literally just dumped the Bio-Spira in there around 4:00 PM EST today, so how soon can I transfer the only remaining fish from the DT over there (watchman goby). I know it was recommended to give him a fresh water dip which may be in order as well, but how long do I wait for any beneficial bacteria to get to work in the quarantine tank, I don't know how much time we've got, but I don't want to jeopardize him by moving him too soon, or not moving him soon enough. I haven't tested any parameters in the QT yet because I'm not sure how soon things show up after bio-spira has been added.

Also, should I run that QT with lights on or off, would it maybe be less stressful for the goby if I left the lights off during this time?

Thank you all!

melypr1985 · Oct 29, 2015

Hi! You dont need lights in the QT. You can put him in the QT as soon as your ready and have it running. Make sure you have saltwater available for water changes as needed to keep ammonia down. It will take time for your bacteria to colonize in your media and you'll need to do the water changes- often- in the mean time. Dont bother testing for nitrates and nitrites in your QT. As a matter of fact, dont bother testing for ammonia either. It wont work with the copper in the system anyway. Use the ammonia alert badge to monitor your ammonia and make sure to keep that at zero. You'll do just fine. With some quick action you can save that watchman goby.

Keep us updated and ask any questions you have.

Kory Miller · Oct 29, 2015

Looks like the ammonia alert badge is going in now, and our plan is to move him tomorrow since we'll have the weekend to monitor him. Hopefully moving him in roughly 24 hours isn't waiting too long....