Help me bring my phosphate up

[Hnguyen]

Hi all, I seem to be having a hard time with my phosphate in that it's too low. Undetectable to be exact. I'm testing with my Hanna low range phosphate check as well as the Hanna phosphorus ultra low range and both are reading zero.

Yesterday I decided to try adding some Neo-Phos to help bring it up. I only dosed half the recommended dosage for my tank size, waited 24 hours to test and still zero. Tonight, I dosed again but this time the recommended dosage and will test again tomorrow.

Can anyone explain to me by my nitrates are at 12 ppm but phosphate is reading zero?

I also decided to check if my hanna check was working properly so I added a few drops of neo-phos to my sample water and that shot the numbers way up. So I assume something in my tank is reducing all my phosphates. I'm trying to keep phosphate around .08ppm.


Cal = 450
Alk = 11.5 dkh
Mag = 1300
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 12ppm
Salinity = 1.025

Thanks

 

[Reefaddict1979]

I can’t Keep my phosphates down. I change my Gfo ever 4 days. Maybe we can trade water .

But all seriously can’t you just feed a little more ?

 

[Hnguyen]

I can’t Keep my phosphates down. I change my Gfo ever 4 days. Maybe we can trade water .

But all seriously can’t you just feed a little more ?

lol, I do feed though!! I feed pellets twice daily and frozen food once per day. Also feed my corals red sea a & b. I've reduced my skimming to dry a little on a dry side and might increase frozen foods to twice daily. I'm just trying to understand why my phosphate is undetectable before I make crazy changes to my system. Corals seem to be doing fine but it's my understanding that zero phosphate isn't a good thing and that I need "some" phosphate. Which is why I'm trying to bring it up to .08ppm.

I forgot to mention I'm also currently dosing 4ml of Red Sea nopox daily as well. I was at 10ml but had a bacteria bloom so I backed it off to 4ml and will slowly increase until I'm back at 10ml daily. My tank is a Reefer 525XL if that matters.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

Are you running Gfo too

Normally I will say if your corals are doing well don’t make any drastic changes. If it aient broke don’t fix it

 

[Hnguyen]

Not running any gfo, just BRS ROX carbon and nopox. I'm dosing red sea reef foundation, reef engery a &b and red sea trace colors a-d but those shouldn't have an affect on my phosphate.

I'm a believer in not fixing it if it ain't broke but it's my understanding I can starve the corals and they can lose color if I have zero phosphate. I'm not sure if me dosing red sea reef energy is keeping them alive or the zero phosphate theory is bogus.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

Well there is phosphates in your tank every tank has some. It’s everywhere. Our test kits measure inorganic not organic or vice verse How long ago did you lower your nopox dose ?

Do you have Macro-algae

 

[Hnguyen]

Nopox was reduced about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Not running a fuge so no macro algae or any kind of algae reactor or scrubber. Tank has been up and running for about 3 months now. Cycled using red sea reef mature pro kit.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

You started using nopox right away? You shouldn’t have nitrate problems your first month unless you went to fast to soon.
Nopox , Gfo all work but the more stuff you use the more likely your tank can be out of balance.

Nothing beat old fashion water changes imo. Also don’t just change the water make sure you get as much detritus out as possible. Imo I wouldn’t dose something to bring phosphates up while at the same time dose nopox to lower nitrates and phosphates. Think your doing too much. Just be patient and see where it goes

 

[Hnguyen]

Yes, started nopox right away. It was part of the instructions for using the red sea reef mature pro kit. Nitrates is present because the reef mature kit has a bottle of "waste" that's added to the water to simulate fish waste. It's meant to kick start the cycle and help build bacteria.

I do a 20 gallon water change every week using red sea salt. Water is filtered through my RO unit and pass through 2 DI chambers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi all, I seem to be having a hard time with my phosphate in that it's too low. Undetectable to be exact. I'm testing with my Hanna low range phosphate check as well as the Hanna phosphorus ultra low range and both are reading zero.

Yesterday I decided to try adding some Neo-Phos to help bring it up. I only dosed half the recommended dosage for my tank size, waited 24 hours to test and still zero. Tonight, I dosed again but this time the recommended dosage and will test again tomorrow.

Can anyone explain to me by my nitrates are at 12 ppm but phosphate is reading zero?

I also decided to check if my hanna check was working properly so I added a few drops of neo-phos to my sample water and that shot the numbers way up. So I assume something in my tank is reducing all my phosphates. I'm trying to keep phosphate around .08ppm.


Cal = 450
Alk = 11.5 dkh
Mag = 1300
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 12ppm
Salinity = 1.025

Thanks

There are many processes in reef tank that cause N and P to be consumed to different extents. Most often it is nitrate that depletes before phosphate due to denitrification, but it isn’t usually a useful activity to try to determine why you have what you have, but rather just adjust to it.

Dosing phosphate is a fine plan, and it can take very large amounts because a lot can bind to rock and sand after you dose it.

 

[shaun1985]

It took almost 12 month for my tank to get to a stable phos and nitrate lvl
Mine was almost undetected on Hannah checker. I started feeding mysis flake 1-2 times a day and it soon fetched it up to the level I wanted.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

There are many processes in reef tank that cause N and P to be consumed to different extents. Most often it is nitrate that depletes before phosphate due to denitrification, but it isn’t usually a useful activity to try to determine why you have what you have, but rather just adjust to it.

Dosing phosphate is a fine plan, and it can take very large amounts because a lot can bind to rock and sand after you dose it.

I just think why dose phosphates. If they bind there is a possibility they will eventually start leaching back out and then he will have the reverse problem. ?

 

[Brew12]

I've never used NoPox but does it reduce phosphates more than carbon dosing with vodka?

If so, it may be worth replacing the NoPox dosing with vodka or vinegar dosing to help raise phosphates.

 

[Lasse]

The amount of PO4 you read in your test is the amount that not have been consumed. This have nothing with a daily flux to do. Dose at a certain amount at x O´clock day 1. Test at the same time day 2. If it still 0 - rise the dose a little. Day 3 - the same. The moment you will detect any PO4 use that dose as a daily dose. You have found the daily flux of PO4. The flux will vary - please test at least every 4 day in the beginning. if your reading rise, lower the dose a little, if it will going down to zero again - rise the dosage.

If you dose this way - you maybe will see your NO3 go down too.

IMO - stop the nopox if you have a lot of corals consuming nutrients

Sincerely Lasse

 

[grassy_noel]

@Hnguyen just wondering, did you start with dry rock or live rock?

I am in a very similar position to you, having used the Red Sea Reef Care program since day 1. I also have undetectable phosphates. I started with dry rock, and later learned that the Reef Mature cycling kit (and the Red Sea Reef Care Program in general) assumes that you are beginning with live rock. I talked to Red Sea about this and they said it still works with dry rock, but things are not quite as predictable, especially early on. I think the Nitrate to Phosphate ratio, which NoPoX is intended to balance around the Redfield Ratio, takes longer to stabilize with dry rock.

There is a user on another forum (not R2R), named RedSeaKev who I believe works for Red Sea and sometimes jumps in and answers these questions...anyone know if he is on R2R? Or still around?

 

[Reefaddict1979]

I am not saying this doesn’t work. But why start with nopox right away. I feel it only should be used in a tank after water changes and skimmer can’t keep up with nutrient export. I know Red Sea tell you to use it with the package. But I also think all those additive aren’t needed either. Of course Red Sea makes them sound great. They make money off it. Of course not saying people don’t use them successfully just saying imo they are like vitamin. When you eat a balanced diet they are just expensive Urine

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I just think why dose phosphates. If they bind there is a possibility they will eventually start leaching back out and then he will have the reverse problem. ?

Not really no. The amount that binds is a function of the concentration in the water. Once you add enough to get to a stable concentration in the bulk water of, say, 0.03 ppm phosphate, then that reservoir on the rock tends to keep it there.

Just like a pH buffer helps stabilize pH, the phosphate on rock reservoir releases phosphate when the level drops below that level, and binds more when it rises above that level.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I talked to Red Sea about this and they said it still works with dry rock, but things are not quite as predictable, especially early on. I think the Nitrate to Phosphate ratio, which NoPoX is intended to balance around the Redfield Ratio, takes longer to stabilize with dry rock.

Did Red Sea claim NOPOX drives a Redfield ratio of consumption? I've never seen that claim, but if they did, I think that is wildly inaccurate assumption for a normal reef tank.

All organic carbon dosing tends to lower nitrate more than phosphate due to denitrification which drives nitrate reduction without impact phospahte appreciably. While we do not have data on any individual tank on how much denitrification actually takes place relative to other processes, it frequently ends up being true that organic carbon dosing uses up nitrate and can leave a residual phosphate level in the aquarium.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

Not really no. The amount that binds is a function of the concentration in the water. Once you add enough to get to a stable concentration in the bulk water of, say, 0.03 ppm phosphate, then that reservoir on the rock tends to keep it there.

Just like a pH buffer helps stabilize pH, the phosphate on rock reservoir releases phosphate when the level drops below that level, and binds more when it rises above that level.

Yes I understand this but that’s assuming you don’t add more phosphates later than you consume. The tank is 3 months old and has been dosing nopox. I will assume down the line he will have phosphates. Adding it now causing the rocks to be saturated with it now will make it harder to lower than in the future if by chance you overdose now of simple just feed to much in future. Is my logic incorrect ?

 

[Water Dog]

Feed Reef Roids. That stuff is literally like powdered phosphates!