Help me bring my phosphate up

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes I understand this but that’s assuming you don’t add more phosphates later than you consume. The tank is 3 months old and has been dosing nopox. I will assume down the line he will have phosphates. Adding it now causing the rocks to be saturated with it now will make it harder to lower than in the future if by chance you overdose now of simple just feed to much in future. Is my logic incorrect ?

If you add more than you consume, phosphate in the water would rise even faster in the absence of any rock binding than when it does bind. Essentially, rock binding primarily slows down upward or downward changes.

The rocks do not become "saturated" at levels attained in a typical reef tank. It will bind more and more as the free phosphate level rises more and more.

 

[Brew12]

Yes I understand this but that’s assuming you don’t add more phosphates later than you consume. The tank is 3 months old and has been dosing nopox. I will assume down the line he will have phosphates. Adding it now causing the rocks to be saturated with it now will make it harder to lower than in the future if by chance you overdose now of simple just feed to much in future. Is my logic incorrect ?

If he over doses for a long period of time, then yes, it will make it harder to lower them in the future. Otherwise, if he never doses above 0.04ppm the rock cannot leach phosphates to drive PO4 above o.o4.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Here's an actual example. It is a measure of the amount of phosphate bound (y axis) as a function of the phosphate concentration (x-axis).

Note that 50 uM phosphate is about 4.8 ppm, so the amount bound just keeps rising steadily as you add more and more phosphate to the water (and declines as you remove more and more):

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...n-of-phosphate-on-aragonite-in-seawater-S.png

 

[Reefaddict1979]

I am actually having the reverse problem. My phosphates are at .08 but I need to change Gfo every 4-7 days. If I don’t then the climb to .23 within a few days. I assume it’s because I have a lot of fish on top of the fact that I used 300 lbs of rock from a guys tank that had a very bad algae problem. But my tank has been running for 1.5 years now and I used about 5 gallons of Gfo in those 18 months seems like I should have this problem solved by now.

Weird this is I get very little algae. I mean my rocks are clean not a drop of hair algae in the tank. I don’t have to clean my glass everyday. Only thing that happens if I get lazy and don’t change Gfo often enough my sps brown out. I don’t understand how I can have that much phosphates and not have any algae. I know the herbivores are eating it but they aren’t missing one spot. And what about the glass

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Weird this is I get very little algae. I mean my rocks are clean not a drop of hair algae in the tank. I don’t have to clean my glass everyday. Only thing that happens if I get lazy and don’t change Gfo often enough my sps brown out. I don’t understand how I can have that much phosphates and not have any algae. I know the herbivores are eating it but they aren’t missing one spot. And what about the glass

Some tanks have very high phosphate (1 ppm) and nitrate (100 ppm) and very little algae.

Obviously that could happen because something is eating it as fast as it grows, but it is also evidence that, as is well established in the scientific lliterature, algae need many things to grow well, including a variety of trace elements (e.g., iron, manganese, etc.) and these can easily become growth limiting in the aquarium (as they also can be in the actual ocean).

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t-limit-growth-of-ocean-plants/205175.article

"We concluded that nitrogen is the primary element missing for algae growth and photosynthesis in the northern portion of the tropical Pacific", said Michael Behrenfeld, an ocean plant ecologist from Oregon State University, "while it was iron that was most lacking everywhere else [in the tropical Pacific]"

 

[Hnguyen]

wow, keep the debate going guys. I'm enjoying the read and learning.

As stated before, I dosed the full recommended amount to bring my phosphate up to .08ppm (red sea recommends .08-.12). I will test again tonight to see if anything has changes.

To answer the rock question, I started out with dry rock and live sand. I've always started out with dry rock but never had this issue. However, this is my first time using the red sea reef care program and dosing nopox.

 

[Rctreece]

I am having the same issues with po4. I did the same routine, Red Sea Reef Mature followed by NOPOX. I have stopped it for the last few weeks and my nitrates have climbed to .05. I guess I will look into dosing po4. I started with dry rock but added 10 lbs of Florida Live Reef rock because nothing was happening in my tank. I am glad it did cause all kinds of stuff has started growing out of those rocks.

 

[grassy_noel]

Did Red Sea claim NOPOX drives a Redfield ratio of consumption? I've never seen that claim, but if they did, I think that is wildly inaccurate assumption for a normal reef tank.

I might have over-spoken there. RedSeaKev (on Reef Central) often notes that using NoPoX should "sync" nitrates and phosphates. In one post on a thread called, "NOPOX stay the course or give up," he notes that if Nitrate is 1-2ppm he would expect to see Phosphate at 0.08-0.1ppm based on continuous NoPoX use.

I mistakenly assumed this was the Redfield ratio, but now realize that's not stated anywhere. Also, I couldn't find this information on Red Sea's website, so I shouldn't have said "they" are stating this. I do believe that RedSeaKev is/was affiliated with Red Sea, but I can't seem to confirm that either.

Apologies

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

OK, thanks. I think the values he quotes are fine target levels (I'd suggest lower in P is desirable), but I don't think using NOPOX will magically get you there.

 

[Reefaddict1979]

Some tanks have very high phosphate (1 ppm) and nitrate (100 ppm) and very little algae.

Obviously that could happen because something is eating it as fast as it grows, but it is also evidence that, as is well established in the scientific lliterature, algae need many things to grow well, including a variety of trace elements (e.g., iron, manganese, etc.) and these can easily become growth limiting in the aquarium (as they also can be in the actual ocean).

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t-limit-growth-of-ocean-plants/205175.article

"We concluded that nitrogen is the primary element missing for algae growth and photosynthesis in the northern portion of the tropical Pacific", said Michael Behrenfeld, an ocean plant ecologist from Oregon State University, "while it was iron that was most lacking everywhere else [in the tropical Pacific]"

Totally makes sense. Makes more sense than the fish and snails eat it faster than it can grow

 

[lbacha]

Some tanks have very high phosphate (1 ppm) and nitrate (100 ppm) and very little algae.

Obviously that could happen because something is eating it as fast as it grows, but it is also evidence that, as is well established in the scientific lliterature, algae need many things to grow well, including a variety of trace elements (e.g., iron, manganese, etc.) and these can easily become growth limiting in the aquarium (as they also can be in the actual ocean).

https://www.timeshighereducation.co...t-limit-growth-of-ocean-plants/205175.article

"We concluded that nitrogen is the primary element missing for algae growth and photosynthesis in the northern portion of the tropical Pacific", said Michael Behrenfeld, an ocean plant ecologist from Oregon State University, "while it was iron that was most lacking everywhere else [in the tropical Pacific]"

Can CO2 be the limiting factor? This wouldn't effect coral as much because of their symbiotic relationship between the coral (CO2 producing) and algae (CO2 consumers). If your CO2 level is low then your coral would grow but algae may not.

Do people with high nutrients but no display tank algae growth also see low coralline and macro growth as well

 

[Brew12]

Can CO2 be the limiting factor? This wouldn't effect coral as much because of their symbiotic relationship between the coral (CO2 producing) and algae (CO2 consumers). If your CO2 level is low then your coral would grow but algae may not.

Do people with high nutrients but no display tank algae growth also see low coralline and macro growth as well

If your CO2 were limiting then your pH would be very high.

I believe there are other DIC's that may become limiting. I'm pretty sure my tank is routinely iron limited. I need to dose iron regularly to keep it detectable and my chaeto growing. Not to mention that I struggle keeping color on green sps.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Can CO2 be the limiting factor? This wouldn't effect coral as much because of their symbiotic relationship between the coral (CO2 producing) and algae (CO2 consumers). If your CO2 level is low then your coral would grow but algae may not.

Do people with high nutrients but no display tank algae growth also see low coralline and macro growth as well

Some algae may benefit from more CO2 ( meaning more at lower pH) but many do not since they get CO2 from bicarbonate.

 

[Lasse]

I rely totally on my clean up crew. Because I have a fuge I can not limit any trace element at all. My preferred concentration in the water column is around 0.08 ppm PO4 and around 5 ppm NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Because I have a fuge I can not limit any trace element at all.

Lasse, can you clarify this statement please?

Does your fuge prevent limiting any trace element or because of your fuge is it important for you to supply all of the trace elements?

 

[Lasse]

What i meant was that in a fuge I farm macroalgae - they have the same demands as microalgae. If I chose to limit one or more substances - it will directly hit my macro algae too. The question if a macroalgae can support your system with useful by-products or not is still under discussion - I believe that but not all persons do that. But the main meaning was to stress that if you want macroalgae to grow - you can´t limit any substances that´s important for them and its the same substances that´s important for micro algae

Sincerely Lasse