Help Me Understand Palytoxin

[clark griswold]

Hello Reefing Friends -

I'm seeking information about Palytoxin and hopefully you can help me. I have had FOWLR tanks in the past but have been out of the hobby for almost ten years and I've been excited to get back into the hobby and try my hand at reefing. When it comes to corals I am a total newb.

Here is my conundrum. I recently purchased a used tank and stand off of someone from our local reef club. It was a JB45 AIO with stand for a very good price. The tank and stand itself is in good shape but was very dirty and had been neglected for awhile. When I went to see it was full of rock and zoas. I'm at least aware of the dangers of palytoxins which is a start and I told the seller I did not want any of the zoas or the rock and sand. So he removed all of the sand, live rock, and corals and I took the empty tank, stand and equipment. I can't lie that wave of news stories about families and pets dying or becoming very sick have given me some pause. I must admit to myself that I don't feel like I fully understand palytoxin and I owe it my family to make sure I've done my research thoroughly before proceeding with this project. So I figured a good start would be to come ask questions here on R2R.

Here are some questions I'd really like some help with.

1) Can you point me to the most important literature every reefer should know regarding Palytoxin before starting a reef tank?

2) Do definitive guides for avoiding Palytoxin exposure exist? If so, where can I find them?

3) Is the used tank and equipment I purchased safe? They have been sitting in my garage for a few days in the hot summer weather. I was planning on doing a deep clean with vinegar water this weekend but some recent news stories started me wondering if palytoxin could still exist in my used equipment. I would of course use gloves to clean but if there is even a remote chance it could still exist I'd rather just scrap this tank and equipment altogether and start new. Going cheap isn't worth the risk to me.

4) I would like to have an LPS dominant tank, I will not have any zoas or palys. Is palytoxin reserved to just zoas and palys? Are there other corals to avoid? Can unwanted corals like palys and zoas come in unintentionally on frags? How do you avoid this?

TLDR, sorry. I certainly realize the news sensationalizes things and I'm not overly paranoid about it. But I also recognize I don't really know enough about this. My family is the most important thing to me in this world and I figured I better educate myself on this topic. I mostly lurk and enter contests but I've really been enjoying the R2R community. Any help you can provide me on my questions is greatly appreciated.

 

[nshepler]

Hello Reefing Friends -

I'm seeking information about Palytoxin and hopefully you can help me. I have had FOWLR tanks in the past but have been out of the hobby for almost ten years and I've been excited to get back into the hobby and try my hand at reefing. When it comes to corals I am a total newb.

Here is my conundrum. I recently purchased a used tank and stand off of someone from our local reef club. It was a JB45 AIO with stand for a very good price. The tank and stand itself is in good shape but was very dirty and had been neglected for awhile. When I went to see it was full of rock and zoas. I'm at least aware of the dangers of palytoxins which is a start and I told the seller I did not want any of the zoas or the rock and sand. So he removed all of the sand, live rock, and corals and I took the empty tank, stand and equipment. I can't lie that wave of news stories about families and pets dying or becoming very sick have given me some pause. I must admit to myself that I don't feel like I fully understand palytoxin and I owe it my family to make sure I've done my research thoroughly before proceeding with this project. So I figured a good start would be to come ask questions here on R2R.

Here are some questions I'd really like some help with.

1) Can you point me to the most important literature every reefer should know regarding Palytoxin before starting a reef tank?

2) Do definitive guides for avoiding Palytoxin exposure exist? If so, where can I find them?

3) Is the used tank and equipment I purchased safe? They have been sitting in my garage for a few days in the hot summer weather. I was planning on doing a deep clean with vinegar water this weekend but some recent news stories started me wondering if palytoxin could still exist in my used equipment. I would of course use gloves to clean but if there is even a remote chance it could still exist I'd rather just scrap this tank and equipment altogether and start new. Going cheap isn't worth the risk to me.

4) I would like to have an LPS dominant tank, I will not have any zoas or palys. Is palytoxin reserved to just zoas and palys? Are there other corals to avoid? Can unwanted corals like palys and zoas come in unintentionally on frags? How do you avoid this?

TLDR, sorry. I certainly realize the news sensationalizes things and I'm not overly paranoid about it. But I also recognize I don't really know enough about this. My family is the most important thing to me in this world and I figured I better educate myself on this topic. I mostly lurk and enter contests but I've really been enjoying the R2R community. Any help you can provide me on my questions is greatly appreciated.

 

[clark griswold]

@Randy Holmes-Farley sorry to bug. Respect the great info you always provide. Any insight you could share on this subject?

 

[manilaboy1vic]

im not an expert on palytoxin but ive had zoas in my tank for years..

just gotta wash your hands after you touch them.. its not like palytoxin is in the water at all times.. ive gotten tank water in my mouth, put my hands in the tank with a cut on my finger, etc..

its like, im not avoiding cars because antifreeze is toxic... if get antifreeze on my hands i wash them before eating, same with zoas, if i touch them, i dont rub my eyes or lick my fingers immediately after touching them..

and alot of what i heard is that the palytoxins are more in palys over little zoas..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

We've had some discussion of it here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-palytoxin-story.398036/page-2#post-4778636

 

[JoshH]

Not answered yet but your used tank will be 100% safe. No issue with cleaning it either Personally I haven't heard of anything other than zoas and palys carrying it. Yes zoas and palys can come in on frags. The best way to avoid that is to transfer corals from the plugs they come in on to new ones. And then QT and observe them. This is best practice regardless if you were worried about palys and zoas or not.

 

[clark griswold]

We've had some discussion of it here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/another-palytoxin-story.398036/page-2#post-4778636

Thanks.

So I read that thread and the one about bleaching.

Is it fair to say no one really knows regarding my questions 1 and 2?

Regarding using and cleaning a used tank and equipment soaking in bleach water would be best?

 

[JoshH]

Vinegar is fine for the tank and equipment, and honestly, goggles, gloves and mask will protect you from any issues that might arise. Also doing any cleaning outside or in a well ventilated area is always best.

 

[manilaboy1vic]

Thanks.

So I read that thread and the one about bleaching.

Is it fair to say no one really knows regarding my questions 1 and 2?

Regarding using and cleaning a used tank and equipment soaking in bleach water would be best?

that article / thread is horrifying.. im never getting palys... i just like the smaller zoas..

but from that thread it sounds like the kids and pets got ill from something else.. carbon monoxide poisioning.

i have literally picked up zoas, moved them, washed my hands and use that same hand to drink some water.. i think its the Palys that are the main concern..

Like these things:

this was one of my first corals back in the day.. and i def. touched those when i first got them.. they are ugly and i tried to nuke'em by keeping them out of light.. i literally threw those in the trash this week.. rubber glove and all.. washed hands immediately...

these large palys are the ones to avoid.. i think like the small polyps, eg, orange bam bams are ok..

 

[clark griswold]

Vinegar is fine for the tank and equipment, and honestly, goggles, gloves and mask will protect you from any issues that might arise. Also doing any cleaning outside or in a well ventilated area is always best.

I think I’m leaning towards tossing the old equipment that can’t be cleaned easily. But soaking the tank in bleach water for several days. Doing a very thorough scrubbing of everything. Like you said outdoors with gloves and a mask. Then soak in freshwater a few days. Then do a second scrubbing with vinegar and freshwater soak. Probably total overkill but allows piece of mind.

 

[JoshH]

If all the equipment is dry, there is no chance of toxin being on any of it. Up to you but I think tossing any of it unless you have no use for it is a mistake

 

[samnaz]

don't toss anything, all equipment can be cleaned somewhat easily and even if it's old and outdated, someone else might want it. I buy used stuff all the time on here, and for local stuff there's also facebook and craigslist. (if I were you I'd just clean it though).

 

[clark griswold]

If all the equipment is dry, there is no chance of toxin being on any of it. Up to you but I think tossing any of it unless you have no use for it is a mistake

don't toss anything, all equipment can be cleaned somewhat easily and even if it's old and outdated, someone else might want it. I buy used stuff all the time on here, and for local stuff there's also facebook and craigslist. (if I were you I'd just clean it though).

So how would I clean return pumps, can I run them in bleach water?

The skimmer that came with it looks crappy anyway. Saw them new for like $30. May just upgrade.

Will bleach water damage anything if thoroughly soaked and rinsed in freshwater?

 

[JoshH]

So how would I clean return pumps, can I run them in bleach water?

The skimmer that came with it looks crappy anyway. Saw them new for like $30. May just upgrade.

Will bleach water damage anything if thoroughly soaked and rinsed in freshwater?

Run them in a bucket of vinegar and water for a while then scrub and dry

 

[samnaz]

+1 soak in vinegar.

I have never used bleach before so I have no idea if it would damage anything, I'm guessing no, but I would be most concerned about contaminating the tank water once you have the tank up and running. At least follow up with a vinegar soak (if you decide to use bleach).

 

[jda]

My basic answer is that most of what you see online about people whole families getting poisoned out are over exaggerated - there are certainly some real stories, but not all of them, IMO. Most of what you see is infected eyes from a squirt or an open cut with a bad infection (this can happen with just bacteria, BTW).

If you have pets, do not let them eat any zoas - unfortunately, this has happened.

Eye protection and gloves can get you nearly all the way there. If you are disposing of some, then bleach will render the stuff harmless quickly. I am decent about protecting myself and never had an issue in 20+ years.

If you get some in your eye or in a cut, then having a photo of your tank or paly on your phone can help when you go to the ER. I told my Family Doc that I have a reef tank and they made a note on my chart in case I come in unconscious with suspicious symptoms.

Be smart. Know what you are doing. You will be OK.

I think that you are as likely to get bitten by a brown recluse or other semi-common nasty spider than you are of actually getting Palytoxin poisoning.

 

[clark griswold]

@WWC noticed you viewing thread. What are your thoughts on palytoxin?

 

[clark griswold]

My basic answer is that most of what you see online about people whole families getting poisoned out are over exaggerated - there are certainly some real stories, but not all of them, IMO. Most of what you see is infected eyes from a squirt or an open cut with a bad infection (this can happen with just bacteria, BTW).

If you have pets, do not let them eat any zoas - unfortunately, this has happened.

Eye protection and gloves can get you nearly all the way there. If you are disposing of some, then bleach will render the stuff harmless quickly. I am decent about protecting myself and never had an issue in 20+ years.

If you get some in your eye or in a cut, then having a photo of your tank or paly on your phone can help when you go to the ER. I told my Family Doc that I have a reef tank and they made a note on my chart in case I come in unconscious with suspicious symptoms.

Be smart. Know what you are doing. You will be OK.

I think that you are as likely to get bitten by a brown recluse or other semi-common nasty spider than you are of actually getting Palytoxin poisoning.

Thoughts on palytoxin existing on used aquarium or equipment?

 

[Rispa]

@Paul B has some info jn his book about bleaching tanks. If you want to nuke a tank your can add bleach then use a declorinator. I don't remember the ratio and forgot the book at someone's house, but I'll get the info if you want it.

 

[jda]

No idea. All of my equipment has been exposed to Z&P (I have some in the tank right now) and I have no issues with the stuff. When I clean, I do use Muratic Acid, but I often just take a flow pump or heater out of the tank, let it dry, wrap up the cord and stash it away until next time. I have never done anything special for Palytoxin.

About all that I do is to close my eyes when I am fragging zoas. You can get squirted.