Help on strategy to RAISE phosphates and nitrates

[K. Steven]

And this first skimerless tank was using a fuge as its main nutrient export as well?

Yes, and water changes.

 

[Cire]

This has been an interesting journey. On Christmas I took the GFO offline. With it, Activated Carbon as well (BRS dual stage reactor design). Today, I tested NO3 at 5. This is the first time NO3 has been detectable since February 2017. Now, GFO doesn't have an affect on NO3. And Carbon doesn't have an affect on NO3. So why the increase? PO3...which I assumed I'd see an increase in was actually holding steady at a very low .01. Got me to thinking...

Had I been doing something differently since I noticed my Monti bleaching out? Yep, I'd started feeding more over the last couple of days. Now I see the correlation. I realize that I shouldn't have changed two parameters at the same time as this messes with identifying causation (take GFO/Carbon offline & increase feeding). In this case, it helped though. 90g of GFO had been keeping PO3 at .025 since August without any negative signs. Previously, GFO at 29g had been keeping the tank at .08 since it's inception in the fall of 2016. There was a little more of this dark algae than I liked at that amount, but it was consistent. IF the increase in GFO caused the bleaching of the monti, why did it take 4 months to do this? There were no zero readings back to back to back over the last month and a half. Rather, there were isolated zero readings over the course of the 4 months, with higher than zero readings thrown in.

Then I started to realize the limitations of my own perceptions on my husbandry. Shortly after the monti started to bleach I bought some frags. Some zoas, a little torch and...an acropora SPS frag. The first "more difficulter" coral I've ever owned. That coral turned brown immediately, and I didn't know what I was doing wrong. I didn't read the forums first to find that (while this may not be ideal) this is a common occurance and doesn't mean the end of the coral. This started a change in my behavior that I believe was the main culprit of my problems. I started feeding the tank less. I know this is the case because there were signs that I didn't heed then, but acknowledge now. The primary sign being that my filter socks (which were typically full of brown gunk every 3 days) were virtually spotless. Rather than being alarmed or even inquisitive, I wrote it off as being less work. Hurray! I starved my tank...an relatively successful tank...for this acro. Without even understanding what was stressing it. This seems crazy now that I think about it. Risking the health of the overall tank to make the environment more "suitable" for this new inhabitant. Not good. What I should strive for is a stable environment that any coral would be excited to inhabit. I think I acted backwards. This lack of food caused the further decrease in the PO3. This, over the course of a few weeks, starved my Monti. NOT, the increase in the GFO from August. At least this is where I am today in terms of my diagnosis.

So, how do I move forward. Well, I was thinking that I would put the GFO/Carbon back online. Split the difference between the amounts of 29g and 90g, which is about where I have it. Run it, and feed more and always feed more to retain a stable level of PO3 (between .01-.04) and a new stable and detectable level of No3 (5-10 sounds good). It goes to show, for me at least, tell me (FEED MORE! ADD FISH! As many have said on these forums - thank you BTW) and I'll never learn. Show me...which is the diatribe I've just written (primarily to walk myself through the reasoning) and I'll get it. Otherwise known as "the hard way".

For anyone who actually read through this, thanks. Your comments, ideas or suggestions on the way I'm thinking about all this are kindly welcome.

 

[mcarroll]

Considering taking out the marine pure block to see what nitrates do too.

I would have done that yesterday – you're on the right track! Keep us posted on all fronts!

 

[mcarroll]

oday, I tested NO3 at 5. This is the first time NO3 has been detectable since February 2017. Now, GFO doesn't have an affect on NO3. And Carbon doesn't have an affect on NO3. So why the increase? PO3...which I assumed I'd see an increase in was actually holding steady at a very low .01. Got me to thinking...

Phosphate limitation will prevent organisms from using other nutrients......can't grow/divide/repair/whatever without P, so there's no need for the other nutrients.

Keep monitoring things for now, but if you continue seeing NO3 climb and PO4 remain near-zero, then I'd consider adding a little PO4 fertilizer to get things moving in the right direction.

Persistent PO4 limitation in that situation will lead to very bad things, including coral death.

(And I'd get that block out of there for sure.....it's not helping with this.)

 

[Cire]

Phosphate limitation will prevent organisms from using other nutrients......can't grow/divide/repair/whatever without P, so there's no need for the other nutrients.

Keep monitoring things for now, but if you continue seeing NO3 climb and PO4 remain near-zero, then I'd consider adding a little PO4 fertilizer to get things moving in the right direction.

Persistent PO4 limitation in that situation will lead to very bad things, including coral death.

(And I'd get that block out of there for sure.....it's not helping with this.)[/

Thanks for the advice. I’m going to see what happens for the next week. I think I need to be patient and allow for changes I’m enacting to have an effect on the health of the tank. I’m looking at the monti and now I see the hermit crabs crawling on it feasting (I’m not sure if it’s the coral’s flesh, tiny algae that’s starting to grow on the bleached parts or what). I know we learn from failure so I’m ok with whatever comes. This is tough though. Very humbling...

 

[mcarroll]

If you're into a little (more) reading while you're waiting and watching the tank, check out the Coral section on my blog. Many articles talking about nutrients and coral that will help.

Some specific suggestions to start with:

• Long-term effects of nutrient and CO2 enrichment on the temperate coral Astrangia poculata (Ellis and Solander, 1786)
• Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?
• Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival
• A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
• Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”

(Some of those titles are looong, but don't let that stop you from clicking! )

 

[skiergd011013]

Put the tank in my care

 

[Cire]

Put the tank in my care

You’ve got it. Let’s hear your advice. Thanks!

 

[Jwheld]

I dose NO3 and PO4 in the form of sodium nitrate and tri sodium phosphate to raise levels.

My skimmer stays online since I feel the extra aeration is beneficial, but currently the water level is at its lowest so I’m dry skimming.

 

[Rakie]

Step 1) Dose quality KN03 from a freshwater planted tank company like ---> NilocG <---

Step 2) Dose quality po4, like Seachem Phosphorous ---> Seachem Phosphorous <---

Step 3) Success.

 

[Rakie]

I dose NO3 and PO4 in the form of sodium nitrate and tri sodium phosphate to raise levels.

My skimmer stays online since I feel the extra aeration is beneficial, but currently the water level is at its lowest so I’m dry skimming.

I might suggest kno3 (Potassium Nitrate) might be more useful for the potassium itself.

 

[Cire]

Step 1) Dose quality KN03 from a freshwater planted tank company like ---> NilocG <---

Step 2) Dose quality po4, like Seachem Phosphorous ---> Seachem Phosphorous <---

Step 3) Success.

Thank you for your suggestion.

 

[Cire]

If you're into a little (more) reading while you're waiting and watching the tank, check out the Coral section on my blog. Many articles talking about nutrients and coral that will help.

Some specific suggestions to start with:

• Long-term effects of nutrient and CO2 enrichment on the temperate coral Astrangia poculata (Ellis and Solander, 1786)
• Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?
• Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival
• A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
• Results of the 1991 United States-Israel Workshop, “Nutrient Limitations in the Symbiotic Association between Zooxanthellae and Reef-building Corals”

(Some of those titles are looong, but don't let that stop you from clicking! )

Hey Mcarroll,

Well, I played around with things. Took GFO offline and then surmised based on NO3 spike that I simply needed to feed more. Put GFO back online. Over the last few days my PO4 and NO3 are ground zero. So I’m taking your advice. GFO is totally offline. The marine pure block is out of the tank. Total departure from what I’ve done over the last 15 months. Feel really apprehensive about it but to your point, I can’t shock the tank by letting nutrients climb. I’m interested to see what’s going to happen. I’ll check back in after about 5 days. I hope this exercise will show me what my tank really sits at with only the live rock, skimming and a little carbon running.

 

[mcarroll]

Keep us posted!

 

[Cire]

I’m back with an update, and it’s not good. It’s been 12 days since the GFO has been completely offline and the marine pure block is out of the tank. Nitrates have gone up. From undetectable to 5ppm. Phosphates however are still zero. The “very bad things” mcarroll said could happen in a situation such as this prolonged may have started. My monti is not coming back. And a beautiful large hammer colony has lost 2 heads in the last 5 days. The rest of the coral looks great. There are probably a total of 50 heads. Even when I ran a moderate level of GFO I had phosphates hovering between .025 and .08 so why I can’t budge above zero now that I’ve taken GFO offline and I’m feeding heavier I have no idea. Any suggestions on what to do is appreciated. Also, should I cut the dead heads off of the hammer coral? Is it bad to leave it be for the time being? Thanks all for any advice.

 

[K. Steven]

Dose phosphate.

 

[mcarroll]

Any suggestions on what to do is appreciated. Also, should I cut the dead heads off of the hammer coral? Is it bad to leave it be for the time being? Thanks all for any advice.

Dose phosphate.

I agree...time for a phosphate fertilizer. Seachem, brightwell and probably others make suitable products.

 

[Cire]

I agree...time for a phosphate fertilizer. Seachem, brightwell and probably others make suitable products.

Thank you for your reply. Are phosphate fertilizers something that become a regimen? Or are they perhaps something to use in my case to “jump start” an increase in phosphate that I maintain long term through regular accurate feeding? Thanks.

 

[mcarroll]

Or are they perhaps something to use in my case to “jump start” an increase in phosphate that I maintain long term through regular accurate feeding?

That!

 

[Reef Jeff]

You are experiencing what a lot of us have over the years. I started this hobby 20 years ago and tried everything from "leave the tank alone" (too high nutrients) to do everything possible to keep them zero. Neither approach works. It wasn't until I started keeping specific NO3 and PO4 levels that things started working like never before.

In a mixed reef like yours all you need is 1-2 ppm NO3. You don't need more than that. More can cause other issues. For PO4 I have found .08 ppm works best. If yours was an sps dominant tank you would go lower nutrients but in a mixed reef you want detectable levels at all times and not just detectable but long term stable levels to keep algae at bay. Some folks run much higher levels of both. It works not because the level is higher, but because the relationship between NO3 AND PO4 are balanced in relation to each other, but it is best to balance at lower levels if you can.

I started carbon dosing (not referring to carbon filtration) and that has been the key for me. Once I got NO3 and PO4 levels in the target range and determined the amount of carbon dosing per day, everything started working and other than a lot of daily testing in the beginning, it is now low maintenance. NO3 always climbs or falls faster than PO4 but the levels are relational so chasing the levels takes some research, but once you figure it out it makes maintenance easy. Current maintenance is: top off RO/DI daily, 1/2 ml of carbon dose daily, dose Ca, KH and Mg as needed, and I feed the tank daily. Drain skimmer and clean mechanical filters as needed. Twice a month 10% water change, and change carbon media once a month. That's low maintenance compared to what I've tried in the past.

If it were my tank I would:

• Feed what the fish need to be healthy
• Run skimmer 24/7
• Run 1 cup high quality carbon media per 100 gals water; run continuously and change monthly
• Stop using gfo since it will take PO4 to zero which is a no no for any kind of tank
• Focus on getting 1-2 ppm NO3 and .08 - .1 ppm PO4 and keep it in that range. I had to dose NO3 until I got both in range because I started with too much carbon dose and pulled NO3 to zero by mistake. I know some folks are not fans of the Red Sea program but I find it to work fabulous. Finding the sweet spot for the carbon dose is the key.
• I think you said your PO is low now. That will come back up quickly on its own. Carbon dosing will address that issue.
• Read up on the NO3/PO4 relationship in closed systems to better understand why you need a balance of both. Depending on the author the levels will vary. You will have to decide what works best in your tank.