Help on strategy to RAISE phosphates and nitrates

[Cire]

NeoPhos came in today. I did my 13 day water change and tested the tank. 0 PO4.

I filled two (1) gallon containers with RODI. No pipette was included with the NeoPhos so I used a spare 2 mL one. Dosed .1ml NeoPhos to one and .2 ml to the other. Got PO4 increase ppm by multiplying by 10 and 5 respectively. Averaged out the two answers and got 1ml of my solution should yield a 1.45 ppm increase in a gallon of water. Divided that by 70 (my estimate in the total water volume of my tank) and I see that a 1ml sample will yield a .02 increase in my tank’s ppm.

So I halted that to be safe. Added .5ml and tested the tank an hour earlier and I’ll be danged. The tank is at .01.

I’m not holding my breath on this working like clockwork from here on out but I was not expecting that.

 

[Cire]

I went off the rails there. Where’s some AI when I need it to check my writing? I meant to say I used HALF a dose on the tank (.5ml). Tested the tank an hour LATER. The rest sounds like gomer pile. Anyway, don’t care. Today has been a good Reef day after a month of not so good ones.

 

[mcarroll]

I went off the rails there. Where’s some AI when I need it to check my writing? I meant to say I used HALF a dose on the tank (.5ml). Tested the tank an hour LATER. The rest sounds like gomer pile. Anyway, don’t care. Today has been a good Reef day after a month of not so good ones.

That is the best set of posts I've read in a while – reminiscint of some of @Paul B's posts in his 40 year thread.

Great finish!

(I loved Gomer Pyle back in the day. ;Joyful)

 

[Reef Jeff]

Lol...We don't care about those mistakes because the math was right. That's what matters here. Good job

 

[Charterreefer]

So far so good! Are you getting a NO3 additive as well?

 

[Cire]

So far so good! Are you getting a NO3 additive as well?

After taking out the marine pure block I started testing positive for nitrates. They currently sit at 5ppm which by all accounts seems to be good. So no I wasn’t considering dosing NO3. I was considering purchasing more fish in time which

I’m going to watch things closely. With my primary focus being on seeing how PO4 changes. Do you have an alternate approach to recommend? Do you envision a need to dose NO3 (and PO4) long term? I was under the impression the fix I’m employing is more to jump start a process I can maintain with adequate feeding.

 

[Reef Jeff]

With NO3 at 5 ppm, you don't need to dose that. Your right, the addition of PO4 is to jump start and get the tank into a reasonable N/P balance. The next problem is likely to be keeping the levels stable and not climbing too high. That is a different conversation.

 

[mcarroll]

I wouldn't worry at all about levels being "too high" as long as levels remain balanced.

Stability is actually your #1 goal.

There really are no magic numbers to hit or avoid, except ZERO. Stay away from that one.

If you haven't been over the whole first post on the sticky dino thread, you might want to check out the What is the End Game section.

 

[cracker]

Cire ,Thanks for this thread. I'm going thru the same issues.The entire read was a big help !

 

[Charterreefer]

After taking out the marine pure block I started testing positive for nitrates. They currently sit at 5ppm which by all accounts seems to be good. So no I wasn’t considering dosing NO3. I was considering purchasing more fish in time which

I’m going to watch things closely. With my primary focus being on seeing how PO4 changes. Do you have an alternate approach to recommend? Do you envision a need to dose NO3 (and PO4) long term? I was under the impression the fix I’m employing is more to jump start a process I can maintain with adequate feeding.

I agree, stability is the key. With your NO3 at 5 ppm there is no need to dose for it although I would keep an eye on it occasionally to see if it stays at that level. Measure the NO3 level as you start to dose (and measure) PO4. Since your tank has been PO4 limited you might see the NO3 start to decrease a little (which is a good thing!). The bacteria in your tank need N,P and C. Since it might not have had enough P (that you're adding) you might see a change in the NO3 level. That's what I observed in my tank once I started to bring my nutrients up to measurable levels.
It's just another way to see what's happening with your system. I'm just a type A kinda guy who likes to take different measurements .

 

[Cire]

Now that I’ve been dosing PO4/testing PO4 for 2 days I’ve noticed fast uptake (either by organisms or binding with substrate). Detectable water column levels have tested zero after the last couple of doses.

I’m not concerned to the point of increasing the dose over the .5ml that first registered a PO4 increase in my tank. I think slow and steady will win this race. Hopefully. I take solace in the fact that I know I’m adding PO4, so my animals have the chance to assimilate some. Just not sure how much is being bound up. In addition, if there is a good proportion being bound, how much of that will be available to organisms at a later date? Would like to advert any ticking time bombs of out of the blue PO4 increases in the future.

Any thoughts here? I plan to continue to dose .5ml per day and test until detectable again. Once detectable, I will skip a dose, test and only add more if undetectable. Rationale sound good?

 

[Charterreefer]

You system sounds like it is using the PO4 being dosed (which is normal). It also sounds like you have a good plan. Lots of measuring is a good way to find the sweet spot. Once you are confident with the nature of your system and it's own unique bacteria and energy requirements you can measure less.
I have dosed my system with my PO4 additive, afterwards got a reading of 0.06ppm and two or three days later measured 0.01. Currently, I usually dose a half a capful (2.5 ml) each day to keep it around 0.01-0.02ppm.

I don't use feeding my fish to achieve the levels of PO4 and NO3 I want. I have found it more controllable this way although some use feeding as the way to do this. I don't have enough of a fish load to do that by design. I'd rather make up the difference with the NO3 and PO4 additives. I find it as a more controllable and consistent method.
I'm assuming that you are keeping an eye on your NO3 as well.

 

[Charterreefer]

It would be a nice time to take a few pics of your coral in order to compare in a month or two from now. Changes happen very slowly....the good ones as well as the bad ones. It sounds like you are on the right track. Steady as she goes .

 

[Cire]

Quick update for those of you who helped. Tank has been testing .01ppm PO4 and 5ppm NO3 for a couple days now without added dosing. Euphilia that was losing heads is plump and happy. Everything else looking good. The pink monti is pale, covered with spots of algae. Im going to assume this is lost. However, the bright side is that so far so good. Dosing PO4 has certainly helped. Will check back in a few days.

 

[mcarroll]

The pink monti is pale, covered with spots of algae. Im going to assume this is lost.

Certainly possible, but I'd wait until he looks uniformly dead....sometimes you'll have some survivor polyps that get reestablished.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Keep doing what your doing. Your on the right track. Try to get the PO4 up higher. We have all been trained to keep PO4 ultra low, but that is really only needed for ultra low nutrient SPS systems where there is strong supplementation with aminos and other nutrients. I have the best success with .08-.10 PO4. Bump it up a few clicks and observe. You don't have to go as high as I do to become a believer. Watch the NO3 too and keep it in the target range. It can only get better from here.

Some pics under combination 10k MH with multiple 380-470 LED. The 10k washes the colors a bit but the pictures come out better on an iPhone with the whites on.

I have a 20 year old damsel that thought the coral above was algae and he took a bite out of it two days ago. It's almost completely healed already.

 

[Cire]

Update since last I wrote in. My PO4 (through dosing, feeding, and periodically turning off skimmer) have been at detectable levels. Everything in the tank is looking healthy, stretching out. Keeping notes each day to see cause and effect. Nitrates have been holding steady at 5ppm. Couple that with most recent PO4 test showing .03 and I’m at a good level. Will continue to try to keep it stable at that level.

Over the weekend spent time with folks at 2 relatively “local” reef stores. Both of them have decades of experience and both of them have seen a monti (like mine) go from pale back to full health. My monti is showing pink polyps in spots. Hoping that after a few months it might make a comeback.

All in all, getting things back to normal and learned a lot about nutrients. Thank you to all who took the time to respond to me and help me out. I’m a better reefer for you all. I hope I can return the favor some day.

 

[Charterreefer]

That's great to hear, I'm glad you're back on track!
I few thoughts...if you always had a nutrient poor tank you will be amazed at the coloration you will see after several months of having measurable amounts hence, the suggestion to take a few pics of the tank i.e before and after pics.
Keep an eye on the NO3 level from time to time, your system will start to mature in a healthier way now fueling coral growth as well as the good bacteria and increasing the overall metabolism of your system (which is a good thing!). I'm curious to know if NO3 comes down for you as I have seen this happen in my system once it had the proper nutrient levels.

 

[Reef Jeff]

Great to hear. Keep us posted!

 

[Cire]

Another update. My PO4 level is detectable, but the level plummets to undetectable after consecutive days not dosing phosphate. Question for anyone who feels like they can lend some perspective. Will my tank always require the additive of PO4 through dosing? It appears that it all gets used up after some time. The amount that I dose (1.5ml) can raise the tank from PO4 of Zero to .03-.04 (depending on amount of food/frequency of feeding/time skimmer is off). I suppose I could dose more, raising levels much higher (say .08-.1) for instance, but would this simply prolong the inevitable drop to zero in time? Wondering if anyone can explain to me how PO4 can reach a saturation level to where it isn’t depleted anymore but rather managed at a detectable level without additional PO4 dosing?

Pleased to have levels above zero, don’t get me wrong. Just wondering how I can get the tank to a stable situation whereby dosing may no longer be required. Any ideas/input is welcomed. Thanks.