Help with a fish problem

[Lavey29]

Hello everyone, I have a 6 month old 65g DT with a 15g sump. I currently have 4 healthy fish in it. A square tail tang, Fairy Wrasse, Yellow Coris Wrasse and a Rohmboid Wrasse. There is a lot of rock scape and sand bottom for them. I recently tried to add 3 more fish to my tank that went through a complete 30 day QT process. They were a Melanaris Wrasse, Royal Gramma and a Firefish. They were properly acclimated and put in the DT. The tang would get close to the Melanarus Wrasse and posture with him side by side. There was no overt aggression or chase away. over the next 48 hours the new fish were eating well and swimming fine in the tank. The tang was still posturing with the wrasse to determine who the tank boss would be. Third day in the morning, the Melanarus is dead on the sand. He has no signs of being attacked or obvious fish disease. Fourth day my little Firefish is dead on the rocks and I notice the Gramma is in the top corner of the tank with the Fairy Wrasse shadowing him closely. He wont let him near the reef. That night the Gramma is sleeping in the sand outside of the rocks. Where before he was sleeping inside the rocks. It appeared as if he was not allowed into the rocks to sleep at night. Next morning, the Gramma is gone missing and now presumed dead.

It is like the 4 fish in the tank will not allow any new fish, big or small into the tank and the reef. I know fish claim territory but there is a lot of different hiding places and caves, out of sight areas. I am concerned now about trying to add any more fish to my tank. I figured I would have about 8 total, half small and half larger maybe 5" in my tank but now I don't think it is a good idea. I have en thought about adding 3 Damsels because I know they can defend themselves even with their small size.

There are plenty of instances where fish don't like each other and often there is aggression over territory but have I reached my reef limit now with only 4 fish? Would you try adding any more? I thought by adding 3 then the current fish would not just focus on one but instead it appears they did focus on the one and then the second and finally the third new fish.

Seeking some opinions and advice......thanks

 

[MnFish1]

Curious about a couple things - and for sure someone else will weigh in:

1. Your QT - did you use medications (copper, etc) - if so did you check levels? Anything else?
2. Though would be odd for parameters to be off enough to kill fish that quickly - did you happen to compare salinity in your tank - vs your QT tank, etc etc etc (alkalinity pH) I'm sure you matched Temp
3. To me despite your QT - depending on how you did it - it sounds like a disease - that was in your tank already - which affected the new arrivals. But - it would also be interesting to know - were the old fish quarantined - and where did they come from - as compared to the new?

@Jay Hemdal

 

[blaxsun]

Don't send out a search party for the Royal Gramma just yet - they're renowned for disappearing into the rock work for days and even weeks on end. I've got 32 (make that 31) fish in my tank right now. Every so often one of them (usually a green chromis) disappears without a trace. There's no real explanation for it.

I'm inclined to agree with @MnFish1, that the new fish may have had a disease (velvet possibly?) - because losing 4 fish in a such a short time seems very odd (even with aggression it usually takes a lot longer).

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hello everyone, I have a 6 month old 65g DT with a 15g sump. I currently have 4 healthy fish in it. A square tail tang, Fairy Wrasse, Yellow Coris Wrasse and a Rohmboid Wrasse. There is a lot of rock scape and sand bottom for them. I recently tried to add 3 more fish to my tank that went through a complete 30 day QT process. They were a Melanaris Wrasse, Royal Gramma and a Firefish. They were properly acclimated and put in the DT. The tang would get close to the Melanarus Wrasse and posture with him side by side. There was no overt aggression or chase away. over the next 48 hours the new fish were eating well and swimming fine in the tank. The tang was still posturing with the wrasse to determine who the tank boss would be. Third day in the morning, the Melanarus is dead on the sand. He has no signs of being attacked or obvious fish disease. Fourth day my little Firefish is dead on the rocks and I notice the Gramma is in the top corner of the tank with the Fairy Wrasse shadowing him closely. He wont let him near the reef. That night the Gramma is sleeping in the sand outside of the rocks. Where before he was sleeping inside the rocks. It appeared as if he was not allowed into the rocks to sleep at night. Next morning, the Gramma is gone missing and now presumed dead.

It is like the 4 fish in the tank will not allow any new fish, big or small into the tank and the reef. I know fish claim territory but there is a lot of different hiding places and caves, out of sight areas. I am concerned now about trying to add any more fish to my tank. I figured I would have about 8 total, half small and half larger maybe 5" in my tank but now I don't think it is a good idea. I have en thought about adding 3 Damsels because I know they can defend themselves even with their small size.

There are plenty of instances where fish don't like each other and often there is aggression over territory but have I reached my reef limit now with only 4 fish? Would you try adding any more? I thought by adding 3 then the current fish would not just focus on one but instead it appears they did focus on the one and then the second and finally the third new fish.

Seeking some opinions and advice......thanks

@MnFish1 has the same questions I would ask here.
While territoriality certainly can be a major issue, it seems odd that you didn’t really see any fighting. Did the dead fish have damaged fins at all? Did you see rapid breathing in the fish before they died?
Jay

 

[Lavey29]

Curious about a couple things - and for sure someone else will weigh in:

1. Your QT - did you use medications (copper, etc) - if so did you check levels? Anything else?
2. Though would be odd for parameters to be off enough to kill fish that quickly - did you happen to compare salinity in your tank - vs your QT tank, etc etc etc (alkalinity pH) I'm sure you matched Temp
3. To me despite your QT - depending on how you did it - it sounds like a disease - that was in your tank already - which affected the new arrivals. But - it would also be interesting to know - were the old fish quarantined - and where did they come from - as compared to the new?

@Jay Hemdal

Good questions, I pay a premium for the QT service from a well known vendor. All the fish have come from his store. He uses copper, prazi, etc... I did ask him about his salinity as mine is at 1.026 but have not received a reply yet. I did drip acclimate for over an hour. I have experienced fish disease once previously in the tank and allowed a 3 month fallow period. The remaining 4 fish were introduced to the tank and have been fine for 1.5 months now. Only the new fish died but they did not display any noticeable symptoms like white spots, mucus, heavy breathing, etc... I know most fish stores keep salinity lower which may have something to do with it combined with the stress of QT and a new environment but it sure appeared like 2 of them were being bullied in a non aggressive manner. Perhaps that collapsed their immune system?

 

[Lavey29]

@MnFish1 has the same questions I would ask here.
While territoriality certainly can be a major issue, it seems odd that you didn’t really see any fighting. Did the dead fish have damaged fins at all? Did you see rapid breathing in the fish before they died?
Jay

Hi Jay, please see above response

 

[MnFish1]

Good questions, I pay a premium for the QT service from a well known vendor. All the fish have come from his store. He uses copper, prazi, etc... I did ask him about his salinity as mine is at 1.026 but have not received a reply yet. I did drip acclimate for over an hour. I have experienced fish disease once previously in the tank and allowed a 3 month fallow period. The remaining 4 fish were introduced to the tank and have been fine for 1.5 months now. Only the new fish died but they did not display any noticeable symptoms like white spots, mucus, heavy breathing, etc... I know most fish stores keep salinity lower which may have something to do with it combined with the stress of QT and a new environment but it sure appeared like 2 of them were being bullied in a non aggressive manner. Perhaps that collapsed their immune system?

IMHO - nothing would collapse their immune system - BUT - obviously something happened. I'm hoping Jay will hop in again. Did you happen to check the other parameters in your tank - like ammonia etc etc etc (I personally have not had a problem with ammonia - and I would 'bet' you did not either - but just curious if you checked it

 

[Lavey29]

Don't send out a search party for the Royal Gramma just yet - they're renowned for disappearing into the rock work for days and even weeks on end. I've got 32 (make that 31) fish in my tank right now. Every so often one of them (usually a green chromis) disappears without a trace. There's no real explanation for it.

I'm inclined to agree with @MnFish1, that the new fish may have had a disease (velvet possibly?) - because losing 4 fish in a such a short time seems very odd (even with aggression it usually takes a lot longer).

He did not look well before he went MIA. The red fairy wrasse was right next to him and when I tried to chase him away he would come right back and force the gramma to stay in the corner at the top. Then at night the gramma was half buried in the sand outside of the rocks like he was not allowed to come inside.

 

[Lavey29]

IMHO - nothing would collapse their immune system - BUT - obviously something happened. I'm hoping Jay will hop in again. Did you happen to check the other parameters in your tank - like ammonia etc etc etc (I personally have not had a problem with ammonia - and I would 'bet' you did not either - but just curious if you checked it

I check everything once and sometimes twice a week. Everything is spot on and ammonia is 0. I just did a water change to just in case.

 

[MnFish1]

I check everything once and sometimes twice a week. Everything is spot on and ammonia is 0. I just did a water change to just in case.

I just wanted to ask questions to get some more information - its certainly a sad thing when something like that happens. I guess - and again the experts will weigh in - but - I wonder - is the LFS QT having a problem, etc - or could there have been something in your tank that your fish were immune to that killed the new ones. Seems like aggression is 'low' on the likelihood. Parameter change - is also possible.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi Jay, please see above response

The salinity issue is a big problem. You cannot acclimate fish safely from 1.020 to 1.026 by drip acclimation, you need to either match the salinity or take a couple days to raise a fish that far (drops in salinity are not a big issue at all).

That said, the timing for a salinity problem isn't quite right here - what I typically see is the fish dehydrate and die in the first 24 to 36 hours. If they survive longer, it isn't likely a salinity issue. Also, they wouldn't start off eating and then stop.


Jay

 

[Lavey29]

The salinity issue is a big problem. You cannot acclimate fish safely from 1.020 to 1.026 by drip acclimation, you need to either match the salinity or take a couple days to raise a fish that far (drops in salinity are not a big issue at all).

That said, the timing for a salinity problem isn't quite right here - what I typically see is the fish dehydrate and die in the first 24 to 36 hours. If they survive longer, it isn't likely a salinity issue. Also, they wouldn't start off eating and then stop.


Jay

I don't know yet with the vendors salinity was but mine is 1.026. All 3 fish were eating well and swimming normal but there was tension obvious.

 

[Lavey29]

I just wanted to ask questions to get some more information - its certainly a sad thing when something like that happens. I guess - and again the experts will weigh in - but - I wonder - is the LFS QT having a problem, etc - or could there have been something in your tank that your fish were immune to that killed the new ones. Seems like aggression is 'low' on the likelihood. Parameter change - is also possible.

4 fish immune and 3 new fish not? Seems unlikely, I am leaning more towards stress of QT followed by moving into a new environment and then the fear intimidation factor just collapsed their will to live.

 

[MnFish1]

4 fish immune and 3 new fish not? Seems unlikely, I am leaning more towards stress of QT followed by moving into a new environment and then the fear intimidation factor just collapsed their will to live.

Yes - in fact - I would humbly suggest that - unless it was a parameter issue (salinity, etc) - that thats by far the most likely reason

 

[MnFish1]

Oh sorry - I clicked send to quickly - I do not think fish just 'give up' that would not make evolutionary sense. And - Immune systems do not 'collapse' - in general - unless there was some extreme stress - that no one has come up with 'yet'. IMHO

 

[Lavey29]

Oh sorry - I clicked send to quickly - I do not think fish just 'give up' that would not make evolutionary sense. And - Immune systems do not 'collapse' - in general - unless there was some extreme stress - that no one has come up with 'yet'. IMHO

For instance, the gramma was in top corner and I chased him towards the rocks. The wrasse chased after him and forced him back to the top corner and hovered inches away from him. The tang got side by side with the melanurus and would puff up tilting his body at and angle to show his size. Does this stress new fish to death?

 

[blaxsun]

I had 8 fish being professionally quarantined for a month. 4 did not survive the quarantine process, but the first batch of 2 were introduced without a hitch (a marine betta and melanarus wrasse). Velvet rode in on the second batch of 2 with a juvenile emperor angel and red coris wrasse. Both (along with another half dozen fish) perished.

 

[Lavey29]

I had 8 fish being professionally quarantined for a month. 4 did not survive the quarantine process, but the first batch of 2 were introduced without a hitch (a marine betta and melanarus wrasse). Velvet rode in on the second batch of 2 with a juvenile emperor angel and red coris wrasse. Both (along with another half dozen fish) perished.

Sorry about that and I realize QT is not perfect but wouldn't my remaining fish be struggling to? I guess they may start to soon right? I hope and pray not.

 

[MnFish1]

For instance, the gramma was in top corner and I chased him towards the rocks. The wrasse chased after him and forced him back to the top corner and hovered inches away from him. The tang got side by side with the melanurus and would puff up tilting his body at and angle to show his size. Does this stress new fish to death?

MHO - No. Especially if there was no 'injury' noted.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry about that and I realize QT is not perfect but wouldn't my remaining fish be struggling to? I guess they may start to soon right? I hope and pray not.

The GOOD news is that your remaining fish are 'good'. Suggesting that whatever happened (IMHO) to the old ones - related to a change in water - or a failure of QT or a disease. I would (nicely) - question your LFS as to their suggestions - and perhaps ask for a credit of some type - because obviously - something happened.