Help With Bacterial Infections

[Mallard]

I recently picked up 3 fish from a local reefer. He had just started to get back in and decided he no longer had the time. I picked up 2 Goldflake Angel juvi's and a Red Sea Regal Angel juvi. I was told that the fish had gone through 2 treatments of prazi and 30-days of CP.

Once I got them home, I put them in a QT next to my office desk (I work from home) so that I could observe them. I added some LR I had curing for a few months and seeded it with pods since these guys were pretty little. I also added a full bottle of bio-spiral to help with any cycle. They were fed a diet of LRS fish frenzy, Panta Nouri Sponge, Panta Nouri Polyps, and FM pellets. All were very eager eaters.

Within the first couple of days, I noticed one of the Goldflakes was having uncontrollable twitching. I immediately started a treatment of prazi and spent even more time observing them, as I understand twitching to be a sign of parasites. Within a few days, I noticed the Regal displaying similar symptoms, so I stayed the course. I was doing 25% water changes every three days and dosing the replacement water.

At the end of the first prazi treatment, I noticed the same symptoms of twitching and proceeded with another round of treatment. Within a few hours, the first Goldflake had a very long white stringy poop, so I figured we were starting to make progress. I finished the prazi treatment, but noticed that the original Goldflake had developed some redness around his gills. I have an ammonia badge on the tank and everything looked good. So I decided to start treating the food with Metroplex and Kanaplex binded with Focus, in addition, I picked up some Dr. G's medicated foods with the same medications. For the next week, he wasn't really looking better or worse, but he wasn't as active of a swimmer. I figured with the meds, they were being a bit more shy. I also wanted to complete 10 - 14 days with Metro and Kanaplex in the food before moving to a more aggressive treatment. Unfortunately, I woke up Monday morning to the little guy barely moving and he passed away.

When I pulled him from the tank, the redness around his gills were actually showing some blood and with blood around his eyes. Within an hour, a very large blood pattern developed under his gils and extended down towards his stomach. I decided that I needed to treat the tank water and food with Metroplex and Kanaplex, as the Regal was now showing some signs of redness around his gills. I could have been some ammonia from the passing of the goldflake, or the bacteria moving on to the next fish. The other goldflake was fine.

Once I started to dose the water, both fish became more reclusive and weren't really eating. I figured it was due to the meds and the water, so I kept up with water changes and dosing. This evening, I went to check on them before heading to bed. I found my Regal laying on his side and the Goldflake wasn't doing well either. I immediately pulled them out and did a bath in acriflavine for 40-minutes (it's about all they could handle before severe distress) and did a second bath in methylene blue, which they seemed to do better in. While this was going on, I got a batch of water ready and did a 25% water change. I turned the flow in the tank way down, but added some airstones to keep the water oxygenated. I also noticed while in the bath that they seem to have some fin rot, another sign of a bacteria infection, while the redness on the gills of the Regal has gone away.

So my question is, what should I have done differently? And what else can I do for them moving forward? I currently have Furan-2, Sulfaplex, and Amoxicillin coming from Amazon. What should my next course of action be? I put them back in the tank and they are laying on the bottom. Both are alive but little movement. I'm sure the bath was stressful. Anyways, sorry for the extremely long winded post, but I thought it was useful to give the full story and hopefully get some answers faster.

 

[tupes]

@Humblefish #reefsquad

 

[Brew12]

I recently picked up 3 fish from a local reefer. He had just started to get back in and decided he no longer had the time. I picked up 2 Goldflake Angel juvi's and a Red Sea Regal Angel juvi. I was told that the fish had gone through 2 treatments of prazi and 30-days of CP.

Once I got them home, I put them in a QT next to my office desk (I work from home) so that I could observe them. I added some LR I had curing for a few months and seeded it with pods since these guys were pretty little. I also added a full bottle of bio-spiral to help with any cycle. They were fed a diet of LRS fish frenzy, Panta Nouri Sponge, Panta Nouri Polyps, and FM pellets. All were very eager eaters.

Within the first couple of days, I noticed one of the Goldflakes was having uncontrollable twitching. I immediately started a treatment of prazi and spent even more time observing them, as I understand twitching to be a sign of parasites. Within a few days, I noticed the Regal displaying similar symptoms, so I stayed the course. I was doing 25% water changes every three days and dosing the replacement water.

At the end of the first prazi treatment, I noticed the same symptoms of twitching and proceeded with another round of treatment. Within a few hours, the first Goldflake had a very long white stringy poop, so I figured we were starting to make progress. I finished the prazi treatment, but noticed that the original Goldflake had developed some redness around his gills. I have an ammonia badge on the tank and everything looked good. So I decided to start treating the food with Metroplex and Kanaplex binded with Focus, in addition, I picked up some Dr. G's medicated foods with the same medications. For the next week, he wasn't really looking better or worse, but he wasn't as active of a swimmer. I figured with the meds, they were being a bit more shy. I also wanted to complete 10 - 14 days with Metro and Kanaplex in the food before moving to a more aggressive treatment. Unfortunately, I woke up Monday morning to the little guy barely moving and he passed away.

When I pulled him from the tank, the redness around his gills were actually showing some blood and with blood around his eyes. Within an hour, a very large blood pattern developed under his gils and extended down towards his stomach. I decided that I needed to treat the tank water and food with Metroplex and Kanaplex, as the Regal was now showing some signs of redness around his gills. I could have been some ammonia from the passing of the goldflake, or the bacteria moving on to the next fish. The other goldflake was fine.

Once I started to dose the water, both fish became more reclusive and weren't really eating. I figured it was due to the meds and the water, so I kept up with water changes and dosing. This evening, I went to check on them before heading to bed. I found my Regal laying on his side and the Goldflake wasn't doing well either. I immediately pulled them out and did a bath in acriflavine for 40-minutes (it's about all they could handle before severe distress) and did a second bath in methylene blue, which they seemed to do better in. While this was going on, I got a batch of water ready and did a 25% water change. I turned the flow in the tank way down, but added some airstones to keep the water oxygenated. I also noticed while in the bath that they seem to have some fin rot, another sign of a bacteria infection, while the redness on the gills of the Regal has gone away.

So my question is, what should I have done differently? And what else can I do for them moving forward? I currently have Furan-2, Sulfaplex, and Amoxicillin coming from Amazon. What should my next course of action be? I put them back in the tank and they are laying on the bottom. Both are alive but little movement. I'm sure the bath was stressful. Anyways, sorry for the extremely long winded post, but I thought it was useful to give the full story and hopefully get some answers faster.

It sounds like you did many things right.

Did you shine a light at the back of the ammonia alert badge to get a reading?

I'm guessing you were using RODI water? And were very careful to not let any soap get in the tank?

 

[miyags]

Test for ammonia. If any, larger water changes.90%

 

[Chrisfish]

@melypr1985

 

[melypr1985]

Within the first couple of days, I noticed one of the Goldflakes was having uncontrollable twitching. I immediately started a treatment of prazi and spent even more time observing them, as I understand twitching to be a sign of parasites. Within a few days, I noticed the Regal displaying similar symptoms, so I stayed the course. I was doing 25% water changes every three days and dosing the replacement water.

This part concerns me a bit. How often did you put prazi in the water? Did you do the full dose of prazi every three days with each water change? What kind of water flow is in the tank besides the airstone that were added?

 

[Mallard]

It sounds like you did many things right.

Did you shine a light at the back of the ammonia alert badge to get a reading?

I'm guessing you were using RODI water? And were very careful to not let any soap get in the tank?

Yes, I've been doing this for a while, just my first time doing a full QT. Using RODI and leftover ESV salt. I never wash my hands with soap prior to putting them into the tank. I will always re-rinse my hands in plain water before putting them in.

Test for ammonia. If any, larger water changes.90%

Ammonia wasn't an issue. I sat near the tank all day and watched the ammonia badge and would shine a light through the back to check. When changing treatments, I would do a 50% water change, in addition to running carbon.

This part concerns me a bit. How often did you put prazi in the water? Did you do the full dose of prazi every three days with each water change? What kind of water flow is in the tank besides the airstone that were added?

I waited 7 days in-between treatments of prazi. With each water change, I would dose the replacement water with the proper amount of prazi. For flow, I am using the new Seachem Tidal HOB filter. So there was plenty of flow, but nothing extreme. I ensured that the surface was agitated and the fish enjoyed the flow instead of hiding from it.

 

[melypr1985]

With each water change, I would dose the replacement water with the proper amount of prazi.

I'm not sure if this is the problem, but it's not great. Prazi only needs to be dosed twice. It only needs 24 hours contact time with the fish to do it's job and isn't active in the water after 48. There is no reason to keep adding prazi to the water change water. The reason you wait 5-7 days before the second dose is to catch and kill any newly hatched babies since prazi doesn't kill the fluke eggs.

I suspect they were over-medicated. I'm sorry hun.

 

[miyags]

Some badges were bad not to long ago. Use different test kit. Sounds like you don't have proper filtration. Too much meds at one time.

 

[Mallard]

I'm not sure if this is the problem, but it's not great. Prazi only needs to be dosed twice. It only needs 24 hours contact time with the fish to do it's job and isn't active in the water after 48. There is no reason to keep adding prazi to the water change water. The reason you wait 5-7 days before the second dose is to catch and kill any newly hatched babies since prazi doesn't kill the fluke eggs.

I suspect they were over-medicated. I'm sorry hun.

I must have misread and/or confused a number of threads I had read. They were fine during the prazi treatment, but it was when I started the antibiotic treatment that things went down hill. But I may have already set things in motion prior to any bacteria infection. Because at the end, they were clearly showing signs of bacteria infections and fin rot, regardless of the metroplex and kanaplex in the water column, in addition to their food.

Some badges were bad not to long ago. Use different test kit. Sounds like you don't have proper filtration. Too much meds at one time.

Not sure what you mean by not having proper filtration... The tank had cured LR in it, it was treated with bio-sipral and had a HOB filter more than double the rated size on the tank. I also had Seachem matrix in the HOB that would also be used for QT only. So there was plenty of filtration to handle any ammonia and water changes every 3-days would negate any possible build up of ammonia.

 

[miyags]

Look up pictures of fish suffering from ammonia. look at the red that develops.

 

[Mallard]

Look up pictures of fish suffering from ammonia. look at the red that develops.

I am well aware of the red that can occur from ammonia burns, but the red was blood.

 

[miyags]

Sorry just trying to help. You asked

 

[Brew12]

It is possible that there was a fairly severe fluke infestation. If a fish is heavily infested and the flukes are killed rapidly, the spots the flukes were feeding on can bleed and be subject to infection.

One thing I would have done differently at the very beginning would have been a FW dip when you saw signs of twitching in order to check for flukes. This would confirm the diagnosis of flukes being the cause and provide some relief for the fish.

I would also recommend not using LR in a tank where you will be adding meds. Rock can absorb medications and cause dosing issues. I think it is great for an observation QT but not when you switch over to meds.

 

[Mallard]

It is possible that there was a fairly severe fluke infestation. If a fish is heavily infested and the flukes are killed rapidly, the spots the flukes were feeding on can bleed and be subject to infection.

One thing I would have done differently at the very beginning would have been a FW dip when you saw signs of twitching in order to check for flukes. This would confirm the diagnosis of flukes being the cause and provide some relief for the fish.

I would also recommend not using LR in a tank where you will be adding meds. Rock can absorb medications and cause dosing issues. I think it is great for an observation QT but not when you switch over to meds.

It's quite possible and I will be doing FW dips in the future. Based on some of the other threads I've read, if there is a fairly bad internal parasite infection, a secondary bacteria infection can develop. The first fish to pass was the angel with the long white stringy poop. He also showed some pretty bad fin rot at the end even after the antibiotic treatments. The other two passed this morning and both were missing most of their fins. After @melypr1985 comment about over dosing prazi, I'm thinking, but correct me if I'm going down the wrong path, is that the first fish had a bad infestation (these guys were pretty little as well). As those parasites died and with me over medicating the tank, it opened the door for some nasty secondary infections and maybe a weaken immune system of the fish (from over medication). Once these took hold, I didn't treat fast enough and/or with the correct range of antibiotics.

Also, the LR was in the tank at the beginning and I left it in the tank until I started to dose the water directly. I was trying to give them additional food and security, but it could have made the problem worse in the end. Lesson learned.

Sorry just trying to help. You asked

I appreciate the help and I hope to understand what I did incorrectly or could have done better and/or differently.

 

[Humblefish]

Bacterial infections can be extremely difficult to treat once they take hold. And while the Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex combo is great; I've had slightly better success treating really bad infections by using this medication: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

The redness around the gills is concerning as that could have been ammonia burn ... But if it then started running down towards his stomach, that is an indication of blood pooling under the skin. Which can be caused by internal infection, an organ rupturing, tumor growth, etc.

 

[Mallard]

Bacterial infections can be extremely difficult to treat once they take hold. And while the Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex combo is great; I've had slightly better success treating really bad infections by using this medication: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

The redness around the gills is concerning as that could have been ammonia burn ... But if it then started running down towards his stomach, that is an indication of blood pooling under the skin. Which can be caused by internal infection, an organ rupturing, tumor growth, etc.

How do you determine the proper antibiotic to treat with? Or decide to change to a more aggressive antibiotic? My understanding is that you want to complete a round of treatment before moving to the next, but in this case, they never made it through the first course.

Also, I'm not discounting ammonia burn and I now realize I wasn't clear in my initial reaction to it. I did a 75% water change over the course of a day (making 5gal buckets at a time for a 20g QT). But to me, it's the fact that when the fish finally passed, there was blood coming from the gills and blood polling under the skin that extended from the gills to the stomach. In addition, the fin rot that occurred even after eating medicated food and treating the water directly. To me that would indicate bacteria or fungus I suppose as well, if not, I'm here to learn.

 

[Empress]

^^ This is a great question as I've lost many fish to bacterial infections as well. Would love to know the answers to your questions about the antibiotics. Sorry for your losses.

 

[Brew12]

How do you determine the proper antibiotic to treat with? Or decide to change to a more aggressive antibiotic? My understanding is that you want to complete a round of treatment before moving to the next, but in this case, they never made it through the first course.

Also, I'm not discounting ammonia burn and I now realize I wasn't clear in my initial reaction to it. I did a 75% water change over the course of a day (making 5gal buckets at a time for a 20g QT). But to me, it's the fact that when the fish finally passed, there was blood coming from the gills and blood polling under the skin that extended from the gills to the stomach. In addition, the fin rot that occurred even after eating medicated food and treating the water directly. To me that would indicate bacteria or fungus I suppose as well, if not, I'm here to learn.

Honestly, I think you did as good as could be expected. Bacteria issues are something I am not comfortable making recommendations on other than to point people to to the forum thread that Humblefish put together on them.

As hobbyists, we really have no way of identifying the particular strain of bacteria that is causing the infection. Without this knowledge I don't believe we can be sure of which medications to use. Experience is the great equalizer to this lack of clinic knowledge and I have little when it comes to bacterial infections. Both Humble and Melypr have much more experience so they can match the symptoms to what worked for them in the past. Had I been in your shoes, I would have used the exact same mix and hoped for the best.

 

[Empress]

I've only had one experience using antibiotics on my fish and it was a disaster. I've lost many fish even though I followed the instructions exactly.

There's a lot to be said about being able to use 3 different medications at the same time. In my "one-and-only"experience" I disagree highly with that theory. I think that's why I lost so many fish. Overdose.

Just think if you go to the doctor for an ear infection....the doctor will give you only one antibiotic, not 3.

Maybe if the infection were really, really bad to the point that the fish will probably succumb anyway, then maybe you can use all three. Since the fish will most likely die anyway.

There's just got to be a better way to treat infections. Poor fish. Who hears them when they cry? I know I do.