Help With Bacterial Infections

[Humblefish]

How do you determine the proper antibiotic to treat with? Or decide to change to a more aggressive antibiotic? My understanding is that you want to complete a round of treatment before moving to the next, but in this case, they never made it through the first course.

Ideally, you would want to take a skin scrape of the affected area(s), scope ID the offending bacterium and then match an antibiotic which will successfully target it. I will be diving more into the microbiology world in the very near future.

Practically speaking, you try to "guess" at least what genus of bacterium it might be and go from there. For example, Aeromonas spp. typically causes red sores to develop on a fish and lots of different antibiotics will treat that: Nitrofurazone (Furan-2), Triple Sulfa, even good ol' tetracycline.

This page contains a lot of good info pertaining to various antibiotics and what treats what: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html

Of course, sometimes you never know for sure what you're dealing with and in those instances all you can do is throw a broad spectrum antibiotic at it (very important). Kanaplex, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa and my fav Nitrofuracin Green Powder are all examples of antibiotic meds with a wide range of effect.

The problem with most antibiotics is they are notoriously slow acting in fish. Kanamycin (Kanaplex) has a slight edge in this dept. as it is readily absorbable by the fish's skin. However, in most cases by the time an infection shows itself odds are antibiotics won't help in time. It's also important to note that antibiotics, in and of themselves, do not cure a fish... only the fish's natural immune system can do that for infections. What antibiotics do is give the fish's natural immune system a "helping hand" by eliminating harmful bacteria populations until said fish's immune system can (hopefully) get the situation under control.

I'm also beginning to believe that most fish would benefit from a "first aid bath" by using an antiseptic (exs. acriflavine or possibly even hydrogen peroxide), before being placed into a QT dosed with antibiotics. This might buy the antibiotics the time needed for them to kick in. You would then treat with antibiotics for 10 consecutive days (very important) in a QT. If you stop & think about what I'm saying, it's no different than treating infections in humans. Except we don't live in water, so antiseptics can be applied topically and antibiotics can be administered orally. Both of those are technically options for treating sick fish as well, just not easily done.

 

[Empress]

Is Nitro Green powder different than Furan-2? Can it be mixed with Focus? I might get some NGP for future fish, but I need to do some research on it first. I dislike Furan-2 as it is very harsh on skin. Won't use it anymore.

And about the microscope...and to take a skin scraping....doesn't that hurt the fish and make things worse?

Also does anyone know if there's a pictorial guide on the different bacteriums? I'm sure there's a zillion different strains of bacteria out there. How would we even know what we're looking at under the scope? Need a guide of some sort.

 

[Humblefish]

Is Nitro Green powder different than Furan-2? Can it be mixed with Focus? I might get some NGP for future fish, but I need to do some research on it first. I dislike Furan-2 as it is very harsh on skin. Won't use it anymore.

NFG is nitrofurazone (same as Furan-2), mixed with one of the sulfa drugs and then Methylene Blue thrown in on top to help heal the wound(s) caused by the infection. It's called Nitrofuracin Green Powder because yellow (nitrofurazone) + Methylene Blue make green. That combo of meds sounds harsh, but I used it on butterflies all the time that would come in with these red marks.

About the microscope...and to take a skin scraping....doesn't that hurt the fish and make things worse?

You have to use a sedative (ex. MS 222) before doing it.

Also does anyone know if there's a pictorial guide on the different bacteriums? I'm sure there's a zillion different strains of bacteria out there. How would we even know what we're looking at under the scope? Need a guide of some sort.

This will take some doing.

 

[drawman]

Ideally, you would want to take a skin scrape of the affected area(s), scope ID the offending bacterium and then match an antibiotic which will successfully target it. I will be diving more into the microbiology world in the very near future.

Practically speaking, you try to "guess" at least what genus of bacterium it might be and go from there. For example, Aeromonas spp. typically causes red sores to develop on a fish and lots of different antibiotics will treat that: Nitrofurazone (Furan-2), Triple Sulfa, even good ol' tetracycline.

This page contains a lot of good info pertaining to various antibiotics and what treats what: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html

Of course, sometimes you never know for sure what you're dealing with and in those instances all you can do is throw a broad spectrum antibiotic at it (very important). Kanaplex, Furan-2, Triple Sulfa and my fav Nitrofuracin Green Powder are all examples of antibiotic meds with a wide range of effect.

The problem with most antibiotics is they are notoriously slow acting in fish. Kanamycin (Kanaplex) has a slight edge in this dept. as it is readily absorbable by the fish's skin. However, in most cases by the time an infection shows itself odds are antibiotics won't help in time. It's also important to note that antibiotics, in and of themselves, do not cure a fish... only the fish's natural immune system can do that for infections. What antibiotics do is give the fish's natural immune system a "helping hand" by eliminating harmful bacteria populations until said fish's immune system can (hopefully) get the situation under control.

I'm also beginning to believe that most fish would benefit from a "first aid bath" by using an antiseptic (exs. acriflavine or possibly even hydrogen peroxide), before being placed into a QT dosed with antibiotics. This might buy the antibiotics the time needed for them to kick in. You would then treat with antibiotics for 10 consecutive days (very important) in a QT. If you stop & think about what I'm saying, it's no different than treating infections in humans. Except we don't live in water, so antiseptics can be applied topically and antibiotics can be administered orally. Both of those are technically options for treating sick fish as well, just not easily done.

+1. Medicine is no different for a lot of mild infections your doctor won't order a culture/lab. Common things occur commonly so it's best to start with an effective abx for common fish ailments then if it proves ineffective you can ramp up to another.

 

[Empress]

NFG is nitrofurazone (same as Furan-2), mixed with one of the sulfa drugs and then Methylene Blue thrown in on top to help heal the wound(s) caused by the infection. It's called Nitrofuracin Green Powder because yellow (nitrofurazone) + Methylene Blue make green. That combo of meds sounds harsh, but I used it on butterflies all the time that would come in with these red marks.



You have to use a sedative (ex. MS 222) before doing it.



This will take some doing.

Wishful thinking on my part. By the way, have I mentioned lately that Reefsquad Rocks The Boat! [emoji568]

 

[drawman]

NFG is nitrofurazone (same as Furan-2), mixed with one of the sulfa drugs and then Methylene Blue thrown in on top to help heal the wound(s) caused by the infection. It's called Nitrofuracin Green Powder because yellow (nitrofurazone) + Methylene Blue make green. That combo of meds sounds harsh, but I used it on butterflies all the time that would come in with these red marks.

So would you recommend the combo of Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metro in place of NFG? I'm allergic to sulfonamides and don't plan on using them I'm sure the combo of Furan-2 and Methylene blue without Sulfathiazole would only be so effective...sorry for the highjack.

 

[Mallard]

+1. Medicine is no different for a lot of mild infections your doctor won't order a culture/lab. Common things occur commonly so it's best to start with an effective abx for common fish ailments then if it proves ineffective you can ramp up to another.

This makes sense in theory or with humans, but one of @Humblefish comments was that once an infection is seen, it's often too late. There isn't time to try one antibiotic treatment and then switch to another. @Humblefish Any reason to not start with NFG and dose Metroplex if internal worms are suspected? It seems if a fish has a nasty infection, you've got one shot at it. Or should one dose the combo first, wait 24hrs and run carbon/purigen and go stronger if things look worse?

 

[drawman]

This makes sense in theory or with humans, but one of @Humblefish comments was that once an infection is seen, it's often too late. There isn't time to try one antibiotic treatment and then switch to another. @Humblefish Any reason to not start with NFG and dose Metroplex if internal worms are suspected? It seems if a fish has a nasty infection, you've got one shot at it. Or should one dose the combo first, wait 24hrs and run carbon/purigen and go stronger if things look worse?

Oh I totally agree you need to start off with the most effective per given situation. In our case as hobbyists we can't really diagnose well and if we can I agree it is too late. It is likely best to go with the hammer first unfortunately which I think (I don't want to speak for Humblefish) is the combination of kanaplex, furan-2, and metro.

 

[Mallard]

Bacterial infections can be extremely difficult to treat once they take hold. And while the Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metroplex combo is great; I've had slightly better success treating really bad infections by using this medication: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

The redness around the gills is concerning as that could have been ammonia burn ... But if it then started running down towards his stomach, that is an indication of blood pooling under the skin. Which can be caused by internal infection, an organ rupturing, tumor growth, etc.

Oh I totally agree you need to start off with the most effective per given situation. In our case as hobbyists we can't really diagnose well and if we can I agree it is too late. It is likely best to go with the hammer first unfortunately which I think (I don't want to speak for Humblefish) is the combination of kanaplex, furan-2, and metro.

@drawman Yep, and that's why I'm asking based on the quote above. NSG sounds like it might be the hammer, with the combo right behind it, but maybe there are considerations for going with one over the other. Just trying to figure it all out

 

[Brew12]

@drawman Yep, and that's why I'm asking based on the quote above. NSG sounds like it might be the hammer, with the combo right behind it, but maybe there are considerations for going with one over the other. Just trying to figure it all out

When you figure it out, share it with me!

 

[Humblefish]

Medicine is no different for a lot of mild infections your doctor won't order a culture/lab. Common things occur commonly so it's best to start with an effective abx for common fish ailments then if it proves ineffective you can ramp up to another.

Exactly. Which is why I get irked when told I really shouldn't be making a diagnosis without a skin scrape/scope ID. As you said, human doctors often prescribe abx (and other meds) based solely on their experience and do not order a culture/lab. Vets will often do the same.

So would you recommend the combo of Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metro in place of NFG? I'm allergic to sulfonamides and don't plan on using them I'm sure the combo of Furan-2 and Methylene blue without Sulfathiazole would only be so effective...sorry for the highjack.

Yes; if you are allergic to sulfonamides stick with Kanaplex + Furan-2 + Metro combo.

@drawman Yep, and that's why I'm asking based on the quote above. NSG sounds like it might be the hammer, with the combo right behind it, but maybe there are considerations for going with one over the other. Just trying to figure it all out

Yes, using NFG or the "triple combo" mentioned above affords you the widest range of treatment available for treating bacterial infections. So, it is best to go with "the hammer" right from the get-go.

 

[scuzy]

if i want to switch from furan-2 to NFG do i just make a large volume water change the next day and that should be enough?

 

[scuzy]

if i want to switch from furan-2 to NFG do i just make a large volume water change the next day and that should be enough?

 

[scuzy]

if i want to switch from furan-2 to NFG do i just make a large volume water change the next day and that should be enough?