Help with Dosing Nitrates - Still Undetectable

[nickkohrn]

I have a 10g frag tank that has two clownfish and an LPS-only assortment of corals. Over the recent month, I have noticed my corals starting to look unhealthy; they are pale and parts are browning. I have had undetectable nitrates and phosphates, which led to a battle against dinoflagellates, ending after a three-day blackout. I decided to start dosing, and so I ordered NeoPhos and NeoNitro from Brightwell Aquatics.

I decided to start with dosing nitrates first, since this is my introduction to dosing anything. The instructions for NeoNitro follow:

Shake product well before using. Do not overdose. Results will be most significant when the system is being dosed with MICROBACTER7 on a daily or bi-daily basis.

1. Using accurate test kits or calibrated digital testing devices, determine phosphate and nitrate concentrations in system. It is assumed that the nitrate concentration in the system is below detectable limits for the testing method being employed.

2. Apply NEONITRO as directed below to attain a nitrate concentration of ~3 ppm.

3. Allow 24-hours to elapse; re-test nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If concentrations remain unchanged, then the system is likely carbon-limited. Dose with REEF BIOFUEL at the rate of 1-ml per 25 US-gallons and allow 24-hours to elapse, then re-test phosphate and nitrate concentrations. Continue daily dosing with REEF BIOFUEL until phosphate or nitrate concentrations begin to decrease, indicating that the rate of carbon input to the system matches the rate of phosphorus- or nitrogen-input, respectively.

4. If phosphate concentration decreases without addition of REEF BIOFUEL or use of KATALYST, nitrate concentration in the system will decrease. Continue dosing with NEONITRO to maintain nitrate concentration of ~3 - 5 ppm until phosphate concentration falls to within desired range (suggested 0.01 - 0.02 ppm). Thereafter, dose with NEONITRO as required to maintain desired phosphate and nitrate concentrations.


Note: If at any time, dosing with NEONITRO results in a prolonged increase of nitrate concentration without gradual decrease as phosphate is taken up, system is likely carbon-limited (remedied by the application of REEF BIOFUEL or KATALYST to the system). Refer to Steps 3 and 4, or to our website (NEOPHOS "Technical" page). 1 ml NEONITRO will increase the nitrate concentration in 1 US-gallon (~3.8 L) by ~5 ppm; 1 drop from plastic bulb pipette (enclosed within bottle) will increase the concentration in the same volume of water by ~0.25 ppm.

I did an initial dose of 10mL, two days ago, to raise the nitrates in my system to ~5ppm. However, the nitrates were still undetectable twelve hours later. I did another dose yesterday evening, and I added an additional 5mL to my 10mL dose, which totaled 15mL. I tested this morning, after slightly more than twelve hours, and the nitrates were still undetectable. The product says not to overdose, so I don't want to continue increasing the dosages. Also, since this product will be expensive for my upcoming 100g build, I will be switching to powdered sodium nitrate and sodium phosphate.

I am currently dosing manually, but I plan to add a Neptune Systems DŌS at the beginning of 2019. I am testing ammonia, pH, nitrite, and nitrate with API tests, and I am testing phosphates with Salifert tests.

Also of note, I tested nitrates almost immediately after dosing 15mL of NeoNitro, and they were undetectable. However, I did get a reading of nitrates during the initial nitrogen cycle.

What can I do to attain and sustain a detectable level of nitrates that is ~5ppm?

 

[declanisadog]

Do you have any significant algae? It could be soaking up the nutrients. You may also consider taking your water to an LFS to double check your test results.

 

[nickkohrn]

Do you have any significant algae? It could be soaking up the nutrients. You may also consider taking your water to an LFS to double check your test results.

I don't have a significant amount of algae. There are a few spots of brown algae on a few of my frag plugs, but nothing that I would be worried about.

Also, I edited my post to state that I tested immediately after dosing, and nitrates were still undetectable. I did, however, get a detectable level (~10ppm) during my initial nitrogen cycle.

 

[ajhudson15]

I dose the sodium nitrate currently and love it. It is more concentrated so maybe it will work better for you

 

[nickkohrn]

I dose the sodium nitrate currently and love it. It is more concentrated so maybe it will work better for you

Where do you purchase your sodium nitrate from? Also, the bag that I saw on Amazon doesn't seem to have instructions. Since I am new to dosing, can I ask how you calculate the amount that you dose?

 

[Vamsi]

I use potassium nitrate, I raised it slowly over a couple of weeks. if you raise it too fast you may end up with cyano. In your case, I am not sure why you are not detecting anything.

 

[ajhudson15]

I purchase mine form amazon. The one I use is made by loud wolf and a small bottle last a long time since it only takes a very little bit to mix to dose. ill see if I can find the page where randy tells the instructions for dosing

 

[ajhudson15]

Here is the post randy made about how to mix the powder nitrate and how much to dose.

Here's a recipe:

Dissolve 10 grams in 1 liter of fresh water. That 10 grams contains 6.14 grams of nitrate, so that solution is 6,140 ppm nitrate.

If you add 1 ml of the solution per 2 gallons of tank water volume, that will boost nitrate by 0.8 ppm nitrate.

 

[brandon429]

It's a fact that many times the 3-4 top brand nitrate tests will not read the same on a given sample. In fact, the range is as high as fifty ppm between tests we have seen in threads, how is test variation being factored here

 

[Skep18]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/222600000/sodium-nitrate-8-ounces-fine-powder-996

 

[miPapareef]

My experience is it takes a significant amount of dosing at first to raise levels in a nutrient starved tank. If you are testing often, I would not fear over dosing. After a few days, you will find not as much is needed to keep the levels up and you can lower the dose. I used the brightwell products and it worked for me.

Also I think it’s important to dose both phosphate and nitrate and keep them both up. And if you want to beat the dinos you’re going to have to raise the levels until other algae takes over. Basically going back through the whole new tank ugly phase.

 

[miPapareef]

.

 

[nickkohrn]

I use potassium nitrate, I raised it slowly over a couple of weeks. if you raise it too fast you may end up with cyano. In your case, I am not sure why you are not detecting anything.

I will continue to dose the recommended amount and see if I can detect a buildup of nitrates. Thank you for the information about the cyanobacteria!

I purchase mine form amazon. The one I use is made by loud wolf and a small bottle last a long time since it only takes a very little bit to mix to dose. ill see if I can find the page where randy tells the instructions for dosing

Here is the post randy made about how to mix the powder nitrate and how much to dose.

Here's a recipe:

Dissolve 10 grams in 1 liter of fresh water. That 10 grams contains 6.14 grams of nitrate, so that solution is 6,140 ppm nitrate.

If you add 1 ml of the solution per 2 gallons of tank water volume, that will boost nitrate by 0.8 ppm nitrate.

I appreciate the information! Being new to dosing is a little scary because I want to make sure that I am following methods that have worked for others. This will be incredibly helpful for my introduction to dosing.

It's a fact that many times the 3-4 top brand nitrate tests will not read the same on a given sample. In fact, the range is as high as fifty ppm between tests we have seen in threads, how is test variation being factored here

Should I get other test kits in addition to my API test kit? I have only been testing with my API test kit.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/222600000/sodium-nitrate-8-ounces-fine-powder-996

Thank you for the link! Have you ever tried this one? It looks like you can get twice the amount for the same price.

My experience is it takes a significant amount of dosing at first to raise levels in a nutrient starved tank. If you are testing often, I would not fear over dosing. After a few days, you will find not as much is needed to keep the levels up and you can lower the dose. I used the brightwell products and it worked for me.

Also I think it’s important to dose both phosphate and nitrate and keep them both up. And if you want to beat the dinos you’re going to have to raise the levels until other algae takes over. Basically going back through the whole new tank ugly phase.

I will look into dosing phosphate as well, and I will keep an eye out for rising levels. Have you continued dosing, or have you been able to stop?

 

[miPapareef]

Have you continued dosing, or have you been able to stop?

I was able stopped after about 8 weeks of dosing because by then levels stayed up naturally.

 

[nickkohrn]

Thanks for the help, everyone! I definitely feel better about what I am seeing. I will continue dosing with my current regiment and see if things improve over the next few weeks.

 

[brandon429]

I myself do not test for anything in reefing other than temp or salinity, for eighteen years now, the rest is simply not allowing cloudy detritus to compile, occasionally spot killing algae once or twice a year as gardening by hand, and spot feeding corals regularly so that they're fed. Do not think that parameter chasing/purchasing and responding with dosers is the only way. For the entirety of my reefing hobby I'll be pumping out frags to trade at LFS, never testing for nutrients, because I'm simply willing to feed well but also never let a sandbed become packed with waste nor have rocks that let out a massive cloud of waste if they're swished about in the water. When you feed well but maintain a clean diaper, the reef complies. This is why many want to be bare bottom, to be clean. Their feed balances all N and P requirements.

Sometimes LFS will test your sample with additional tests, this can provide at least a baseline guess

 

[Skep18]

Thank you for the link! Have you ever tried this one? It looks like you can get twice the amount for the same price.

I haven't. I imagine they're near identical.

 

[nickkohrn]

I myself do not test for anything in reefing other than temp or salinity, for eighteen years now, the rest is simply not allowing cloudy detritus to compile, occasionally spot killing algae once or twice a year as gardening by hand, and spot feeding corals regularly so that they're fed. Do not think that parameter chasing/purchasing and responding with dosers is the only way. For the entirety of my reefing hobby I'll be pumping out frags to trade at LFS, never testing for nutrients, because I'm simply willing to feed well but also never let a sandbed become packed with waste nor have rocks that let out a massive cloud of waste if they're swished about in the water. When you feed well but maintain a clean diaper, the reef complies. This is why many want to be bare bottom, to be clean. Their feed balances all N and P requirements.

Sometimes LFS will test your sample with additional tests, this can provide at least a baseline guess

I often wonder how stress-free our lives could be if we simply stopped chasing numbers. I will be going bare-bottom in my upcoming build. I'm hoping that I will be able to "maintain a clean diaper" because of it; I love the look of sand, but the long-term maintenance requirements is what is steering my decision. I want the ability to have a buffer if I miss performing maintenance regularly for a short period of time.

I have tried raising my levels by feeding more often and more heavily, but I see my ammonia levels raise slightly without a detectable change in nitrates.

 

[nickkohrn]

I planned on adding some copepods from Algae Barn, and I was looking at the combo pack that comes with phytoplankton. However, after reading the description, I should likely wait on the phytoplankton because it has the following information in the description:

We designed OceanMagik to improve water quality by out competing nuisance algae for Nitrate and Phosphate. As the Live Phytoplankton in OceanMagik reproduces, it consumes nitrate and phosphate in the aquarium. This rapid growth leaves less of these chemicals available for use by unwanted algae – as a result, OceanMagik restrics unwanted growth.

Am I okay to add copepods, or should I wait until my nitrates and phosphates are under control? If I can add them now, should I wait on the phytoplankton? If I should wait on the phytoplankton, will the copepods have enough nutrition from any uneaten food?

 

[beaslbob]

Seems to me that calcium nitrate (available at feed/seed/garden shops) would be a good thing to dose as well.

my .02