Help with fish in my QT

Weeb · Jan 14, 2023

Still begs the question, "Infected with what?"

Jay Hemdal · Jan 14, 2023

Gildo said:
@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal got back from work today and bad surprise! also Ctenochaetus, who seemed the healthiest (but he had started breathing fast) died! labroides is lying on the bottom and breathing very fast!
since I’m on the 10th day of copper I exclude velvet or ich, and the ammonia level is ok.... can I somehow look at the fish and locate the cause??????
do I throw away all the water, disinfect everything with bleach and start over with the cycle of the new larger QT that will arrive on Tuesday?
probably the foxface that died first infected everyone....

Sorry to hear. Can you post a video?

Coppersafe is being done properly, so I think you can exclude velvet. Ich doesn't cause rapid breathing until near the end of the infection. Water quality issues are almost always from ammonia, low dissolved oxygen can be a problem, but I think that tank is properly aerated so you can rule that out.

That leaves flukes or bacterial gill disease as the next two likely possibilities......

Jay

Gildo · Jan 31, 2023

I hope I learned from my mistakes...
New 22 Gallon QT.
only two small 2.5 inch fish at a time
1 Ctenochaetus and 1 foxface.
bought from "reliable" shop that keeps fish at 35%000 salinity
the Ctenochaetus was there for 3 months (seen with my own eyes)
foxface from 10 days
I've been observing them in my qt for 4 days, they eat a lot but as soon as I get close they run away, however they don't have any obvious signs of illness.
only observations, but I think it's nothing,
1) the Ctenochaetus has the 2 dots of the "nostrils" clearly visible and white, in the others I've had I hadn't noticed them, but it seems to me a normal thing.
2) I saw the volpinus defecate once, it makes a liquid-brown cloud that dissolves immediately in the water, I'm feeding them with spirulina flakes.

So far everything normal?

ictium or velvet in active form would seem to be excluded, the fish that I have lost so far I have lost after copper or in any case after the twentieth day of copper, even if it does not comply with the protocol, could I start treatment with prazi? If infections occur, can I add acriflavine to copper or prazi? (I found and bought a fish product with 2mg of acriflavine in 1ml called dessamor)

Gildo · Feb 19, 2023

Hi!
to recap, I have observed my fish in the new QT for 8 days. and since they were fine I opted to start with the treatment with prazi, 2.5ppm every 8 days, tomorrow I will do the third treatment, never changed the water! Will I have to do a water change before switching to copper? or just wait 48 hours for the prazi to degrade and then dose copper???
since so far the fish have not had any signs of disease can I make less than 32 days of copper??? if so how many? or always better 32?
thank you all

Jay Hemdal · Feb 19, 2023

Gildo said:
Hi!
to recap, I have observed my fish in the new QT for 8 days. and since they were fine I opted to start with the treatment with prazi, 2.5ppm every 8 days, tomorrow I will do the third treatment, never changed the water! Will I have to do a water change before switching to copper? or just wait 48 hours for the prazi to degrade and then dose copper???
since so far the fish have not had any signs of disease can I make less than 32 days of copper??? if so how many? or always better 32?
thank you all

Prazi does degrade in 36 hours or so, but water changes can’t hurt, since you’ll be going into 30 days of copper.
If you are using coppersafe 30 days is safest.
Jay

Gildo · Feb 20, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Prazi does degrade in 36 hours or so, but water changes can’t hurt, since you’ll be going into 30 days of copper.
If you are using coppersafe 30 days is safest.
Jay

Thank you! I follow your instructions!
if I understood correctly, when I will do the new cycle with new fish, the bacterial degradation of the prazi, shouldn't still be so fast that it won't work, (3 doses now + 3 doses for the new fish) but a third cycle with new fish (6+3) the prazi will in theory degrade too fast and won't work!
did I get it right?
so what am i supposed to do? empty disinfect with bleach, aquarium and media and do a new cycle?

Jay Hemdal · Feb 20, 2023

Gildo said:
Thank you! I follow your instructions!
if I understood correctly, when I will do the new cycle with new fish, the bacterial degradation of the prazi, shouldn't still be so fast that it won't work, (3 doses now + 3 doses for the new fish) but a third cycle with new fish (6+3) the prazi will in theory degrade too fast and won't work!
did I get it right?
so what am i supposed to do? empty disinfect with bleach, aquarium and media and do a new cycle?

Nobody really knows the speed at which the bacteria can degrade prazi, it probably varies by tank. Here is the paper that discovered this issue:

Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA

In my opinion, it takes about 5 doses before the bacteria breaks it down too fast for it to work. Yes, bleaching the tank and starting over is the best work-around for this between batches of fish.

Jay

Gildo · Feb 20, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Nobody really knows the speed at which the bacteria can degrade prazi, it probably varies by tank. Here is the paper that discovered this issue:

Checking your browser - reCAPTCHA

In my opinion, it takes about 5 doses before the bacteria breaks it down too fast for it to work. Yes, bleaching the tank and starting over is the best work-around for this between batches of fish.

Jay

Thanks for the reply!
interesting article!

Gildo · Aug 26, 2023

Hi everyone
after the first errors I was able to correctly execute 3 quarantine cycles without problems following the @Jay Hemdal protocol with ctenochaetus strigosus, foxface, even since I have an excellent movement in the QT with a pair of clownfish I dosed prazi and copper at the same time, and the fish they showed signs of suffering!

now I would like Paracanthurus hepatus and about ten Chromis viridis. (purchasing them here in Europe)
I understand that both are persci very prone to diseases ... do I have to make some modifications to the usual QT protocol (indicated by @Jay Hemdal ) or do I proceed as usual and am I still sure of eradicating any pathology?

Jay Hemdal · Aug 26, 2023

Gildo said:
Hi everyone
after the first errors I was able to correctly execute 3 quarantine cycles without problems following the @Jay Hemdal protocol with ctenochaetus strigosus, foxface, even since I have an excellent movement in the QT with a pair of clownfish I dosed prazi and copper at the same time, and the fish they showed signs of suffering!

now I would like Paracanthurus hepatus and about ten Chromis viridis. (purchasing them here in Europe)
I understand that both are persci very prone to diseases ... do I have to make some modifications to the usual QT protocol (indicated by @Jay Hemdal ) or do I proceed as usual and am I still sure of eradicating any pathology?

No changes are really needed. Here in the US, green chromis are seeing very high mortality from shipping issues and internal Uronema. The quarantine protocol cannot resolve those. Some green chromis in Europe can be sourced from Kenya. Those seem sturdier and would be better choices.
Jay

Gildo · Aug 27, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
No changes are really needed. Here in the US, green chromis are seeing very high mortality from shipping issues and internal Uronema. The quarantine protocol cannot resolve those. Some green chromis in Europe can be sourced from Kenya. Those seem sturdier and would be better choices.
Jay

Thank you @Jay Hemdal !!!!
so i will try to get some from kenya
so if quarantine doesn't fix internal uronema, how long should i keep animals isolated to be (and zero mortality) to be sure they don't have it?
instead with Paracanthurus hepatus and its strong susceptibility and probability of having ich, the usual abundant 30 days of copper make us rest assured I guess!

Jay Hemdal · Aug 27, 2023

Gildo said:
Thank you @Jay Hemdal !!!!
so i will try to get some from kenya
so if quarantine doesn't fix internal uronema, how long should i keep animals isolated to be (and zero mortality) to be sure they don't have it?
instead with Paracanthurus hepatus and its strong susceptibility and probability of having ich, the usual abundant 30 days of copper make us rest assured I guess!

I would put them through a standard quarantine. Uronema usually shows up during that time.

Jay

Gildo · Sep 19, 2023

‍
I am on the 15 day of quarantine with the chromis viridis and signs of uronema seem to appear on one of them... the only drug I have managed to obtain is the "dessamor" based on Acriflavine hydrochloride 2mg and methylene blue 2.75,
I haven't found any information on acriflavine and uronema, could it be useful for me to complete the 30 days with copper and then move on to formalin baths??? (who do nothing about internal disease…)
from the last dead chromis, after how many days without deaths can I consider the surviving fish healthy?
with them there is a Halichoeres chrysus, can it also get uronema or finished copper and prazi can I put it in the main tank?

Jay Hemdal · Sep 19, 2023

Gildo said:
‍
I am on the 15 day of quarantine with the chromis viridis and signs of uronema seem to appear on one of them... the only drug I have managed to obtain is the "dessamor" based on Acriflavine hydrochloride 2mg and methylene blue 2.75,
I haven't found any information on acriflavine and uronema, could it be useful for me to complete the 30 days with copper and then move on to formalin baths??? (who do nothing about internal disease…)
from the last dead chromis, after how many days without deaths can I consider the surviving fish healthy?
with them there is a Halichoeres chrysus, can it also get uronema or finished copper and prazi can I put it in the main tank?

H. chrysus also come down with Uronema. I’ve never tried acriflavine on Uronema. As you are aware, the problem is that the Uronema lives inside the fish, so chemicals in the water can’t reach it.
Are you certain the green chromis has Uronema?
I generally wait 45 days after the last fish loss before calling the fish clear of Uronema.
I may have mentioned to you, Ironema is found naturally in many aquariums.
Jay

Gildo · Sep 20, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
H. chrysus also come down with Uronema. I’ve never tried acriflavine on Uronema. As you are aware, the problem is that the Uronema lives inside the fish, so chemicals in the water can’t reach it.
Are you certain the green chromis has Uronema?
I generally wait 45 days after the last fish loss before calling the fish clear of Uronema.
I may have mentioned to you, Ironema is found naturally in many aquariums.
Jay

No, no certainty, the youngest died 4 days ago, but too decomposed to say anything! (it could have been any cause!) I notice the difference between some very beautiful ones, and others that have some tiny red spots that cannot be photographed however small or the loss of some scales but with apparently healthy tissue underneath and with the dorsal fin semi-closed and not beautiful open like the others! all lively and hungry, but in QT I don't overdo it with food.

I informed myself in advance.

So it seems to me to understand, (simplifying the matter a little) that the uronema is endemic, and fish like the chromis are easily attacked by it, becoming the multiplication reservoir, and subsequently the high concentration causes other fish that also get ill can they tolerate it at normal concentrations???

I could take a look with the microscope, but my poor "visual" preparation of the pathogens, from the images seen, it seems identical to ostreopsis ovata!!! so I think my eye is useless!

Thanks @Jay Hemdal !!! you always have a lot to teach us!

Gildo · Oct 3, 2023

thirty-fifth day of quarantine, prazi done immediately, at the same time as the copper at the beginning. now the fish are still in copper, I wanted to change 90% of the water tomorrow. meanwhile in the morning they all seem lively, and in the evening I find one dead for 4 days here's the photo! the spots aren't red, they look more like missing scales but they seemed that way from the start! the other side is healthy!
Help

Jay Hemdal · Oct 3, 2023

Gildo said:
thirty-fifth day of quarantine, prazi done immediately, at the same time as the copper at the beginning. now the fish are still in copper, I wanted to change 90% of the water tomorrow. meanwhile in the morning they all seem lively, and in the evening I find one dead for 4 days here's the photo! the spots aren't red, they look more like missing scales but they seemed that way from the start! the other side is healthy!
Help

The closed mouth is not a symptom of Uronema, most green chromis that die from it have their mouths fixed wide open. Also, the spots aren't red, like you said. Additionally, there is some caudal fin damage. Putting that all together, my guess is that this fish was bullied.

Jay