Help with Water Quality (Rapid Fish Death)

[InTentsReef]

Hello!

I am an experienced reefer having setup tanks for over 12 years, but encountered a new problem with my latest tank and need help. Of note, I just moved from the US to the UK, so it’s possible there is something unique here that is throwing me off….

Bottom Line: setup and cycled a new tank. Everything tests fine as far as I can see, but when I have tried adding fish and corals, they die almost immediately.

Details:
- 20 gallon tank started in late april
- dry rock and ocean direct sand
- Tropic Marin salt (same batch I was using before on another tank)
- Apex system, heater, Kessil lights, etc
- Added AquaForest and PNS substrate sauce to provide bacteria for cycling

Water chemistry:
- Nitrate and Nitrite both spiked and dropped to zero
- No ammonia
- pH 8.4
- Temp 78-79
- Alk 7.9
- Salinity 33ppm
- No chlorine detected
-RODI water (just changed out the filters when I started the tank. Blowing through DI resin but I think that’s bc of the lower water pressure at this house. Have a booster on order to hopefully help with that)

Problem:
After a month of cycling I got a pair of clowns and added them to the tank. Within 90 mins, both were dead. They had hard labored breathing as they expired. At the time I chalked it up to being a new tank, though even that didn’t really make sense given the signs of the nitrogen cycle finishing. Last week, after another month of letting the tank cycle (at this point I have a nice layer of algae growing in the tank), I added another pair of clowns and a few small LPS and Zoa frags. Drip acclimated the clowns to make sure everyone was okay. This time the fish survived about 3 hours before the same thing happened. Within 6 hours the coral tissue was RTNing and by morning the corals were totally dead.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing about this tank that should be killing fish (or coral) rapidly….and yet, here we are!

I have ordered ICP tests for the water in the tank and my RO source water and am awaiting results. I’m afraid though that there might be something going on that ICP won’t even detect. I’ve never seen anything like this, and I’m totally at a loss for possible sources of the problem.
Appreciate any thoughts on this mystery….

 

[fishguy242]

hi, hope icp will determine problem.
possible copper leaching from rock?? coral loss ??
possible O2 level ? velvet introduced ? fish loss ?
#reefsqaud
#fishmedic

 

[threebuoys]

What was salinity for the water in which the fish arrived vs your tank?
I'm surprised you don't have at least a trace of nitrate in a new cycled tank. What test kit? I'm suspicious of ammonia too. I don't see jow the fish expired so quickly unless you have a water quality issue. Ammonia, salinity, perhaps pH; or the water source is not being adequately processed by rodi. chlorine?

 

[InTentsReef]

hi, hope icp will determine problem.
possible copper leaching from rock?? coral loss ??
possible O2 level ? velvet introduced ? fish loss ?
#reefsqaud
#fishmedic

copper leaching from dry rock? It’s the Marco rocks stuff… I’ve never heard of copper with that.

Fish didn’t have velvet. I don’t have a way of gauging the O2 level in the tank.

 

[InTentsReef]

What was salinity for the water in which the fish arrived vs your tank?
I'm surprised you don't have at least a trace of nitrate in a new cycled tank. What test kit? I'm suspicious of ammonia too. I don't see jow the fish expired so quickly unless you have a water quality issue. Ammonia, salinity, perhaps pH; or the water source is not being adequately processed by rodi. chlorine?

Salinity for fish and tank was the same, but even still, they drip acclimated for an hour.

I probably have a trace amount of nitrate, but not substantial. Even still, only very very high nitrates would be a problem. I have also considered ammonia and chlorine but unable to detect it with my test kits. Ammonia and chlorine tests are the quick strips — accurate enough to show me if there was an elevated level.

 

[InTentsReef]

I looked up the water quality report from my source water. This is pre-treatment from RODI.

 

[Rick's Reviews]

Did you buy from LFS, you could take water from your aquarium to them to test for you, which will be alot more accurate then test strips, just very unusual of sudden/quick deaths but I would say invest in more accurate water test kit before adding any more life.
I'm not judging but Unusual that you say 12 years as a aquriast but using test strips, if it's worked for you in the past then I'm unsure

 

[Dburr1014]

Copper would explain the coral dying but not the fish.
Ammonia would explain the fish death but not the coral.

Where did this tank come from? New? Was it cleaned? Is it possible some type of chemical /contaminate is in the system?
Edit:
Where is the batch of salt from? Turkey?

 

[fishguy242]

possible traces of aluminum getting by di ,and accumulating?
icp will tell that.
metazorb may be an option after test sample is taken.

 

[wculver]

Hello!

I am an experienced reefer having setup tanks for over 12 years, but encountered a new problem with my latest tank and need help. Of note, I just moved from the US to the UK, so it’s possible there is something unique here that is throwing me off….

Bottom Line: setup and cycled a new tank. Everything tests fine as far as I can see, but when I have tried adding fish and corals, they die almost immediately.

Details:
- 20 gallon tank started in late april
- dry rock and ocean direct sand
- Tropic Marin salt (same batch I was using before on another tank)
- Apex system, heater, Kessil lights, etc
- Added AquaForest and PNS substrate sauce to provide bacteria for cycling

Water chemistry:
- Nitrate and Nitrite both spiked and dropped to zero
- No ammonia
- pH 8.4
- Temp 78-79
- Alk 7.9
- Salinity 33ppm
- No chlorine detected
-RODI water (just changed out the filters when I started the tank. Blowing through DI resin but I think that’s bc of the lower water pressure at this house. Have a booster on order to hopefully help with that)

Problem:
After a month of cycling I got a pair of clowns and added them to the tank. Within 90 mins, both were dead. They had hard labored breathing as they expired. At the time I chalked it up to being a new tank, though even that didn’t really make sense given the signs of the nitrogen cycle finishing. Last week, after another month of letting the tank cycle (at this point I have a nice layer of algae growing in the tank), I added another pair of clowns and a few small LPS and Zoa frags. Drip acclimated the clowns to make sure everyone was okay. This time the fish survived about 3 hours before the same thing happened. Within 6 hours the coral tissue was RTNing and by morning the corals were totally dead.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing about this tank that should be killing fish (or coral) rapidly….and yet, here we are!

I have ordered ICP tests for the water in the tank and my RO source water and am awaiting results. I’m afraid though that there might be something going on that ICP won’t even detect. I’ve never seen anything like this, and I’m totally at a loss for possible sources of the problem.
Appreciate any thoughts on this mystery….

It sounds to me you added something to the aquascape like a piece of sandstone that is leaching into the water either intentionally for aesthetics or unintentionally.

 

[InTentsReef]

Did you buy from LFS, you could take water from your aquarium to them to test for you, which will be alot more accurate then test strips, just very unusual of sudden/quick deaths but I would say invest in more accurate water test kit before adding any more life.
I'm not judging but Unusual that you say 12 years as a aquriast but using test strips, if it's worked for you in the past then I'm unsure

Most chlorine tests are strips.

 

[InTentsReef]

It sounds to me you added something to the aquascape like a piece of sandstone that is leaching into the water either intentionally for aesthetics or unintentionally.

No sandstone or other rock. Literally Marco dry rocks and sand.

 

[threebuoys]

I don't think the issue is an illness , again because the fish died so quickly.
Glad your salinity is OK. In the states, many fish stores run salinity at 1. 20 while most hobbyists target 1.025-1.026. When that difference is detected the upward adjustment should be done over days, not hours.
Chlorine and ammonia can be rapid killers. I personally have lost confidence in test strips but your products may be much better than what I've seen.

 

[InTentsReef]

I don't think the issue is an illness , again because the fish died so quickly.
Glad your salinity is OK. In the states, many fish stores run salinity at 1. 20 while most hobbyists target 1.025-1.026. When that difference is detected the upward adjustment should be done over days, not hours.
Chlorine and ammonia can be rapid killers. I personally have lost confidence in test strips but your products may be much better than what I've seen.

I’d be inclined to agree, but multiple chlorine and ammonia tests have shown no trace. The ammonia test is a standard titration test.

 

[DavidinGA]

My money is on something toxic in the water.

And I would wager to bet the ICP test won't show what it is...

 

[InTentsReef]

My money is on something toxic in the water.

And I would wager to bet the ICP test won't show what it is...

I’m afraid of that. Which is why I am trying to come up with alternatives. In theory any other toxins should show up on the city water report I had above…. Do I try adding some metal binding resin?

 

[HBtank]

In would evaluate the air quality in the room the tank is, and any chemicals such as pesticides/herbicides used in the area. Also potentially stray voltage?

To me this is something toxic that likely isn't a traditional concern that would be caught by standard test or ICP.

 

[ReefLife_Guy]

I don't think the issue is an illness , again because the fish died so quickly.
Glad your salinity is OK. In the states, many fish stores run salinity at 1. 20 while most hobbyists target 1.025-1.026. When that difference is detected the upward adjustment should be done over days, not hours.
Chlorine and ammonia can be rapid killers. I personally have lost confidence in test strips but your products may be much better than what I've seen.

I agree with this, salinity was my first thought and some toxin was my second thought. Both of these mainly because of the quickness of death. Rapid salinity changes can cause rapid death, because of huge sudden fluid shifts within the organism to equilibrate with the environment. If the difference in salinity is large enough, the acclimation period will need to be days and not minutes to hours. In humans we try to avoid changing blood sodium levels by more than 0.5mEq/L per hour because rapid changes in sodium can cause fluid to shift between compartments of the body and cause things like swelling in the brain. What method do you use to measure salinity? Even if the actual number is inaccurate, you should at least be able to compare the difference between the water they are in from the lfs and what your water currently is. I believe there is a stickie thread about hypo salinity and there is mention of how quick you can change the salinity. IF they are the same then you can rule that out, just be sure they are measured with the same exact device.

When it comes to toxins, you can try adding activated charcoal to the tank to absorb anything that might not be picked up on by ICP tests. The only problem is that it will be harder to know the source of the toxin or what the toxin is if you are just removing it with the charcoal. If it is something leaching into the water from something in the tank, it is probably better to remove/replace whatever it is than it is to just absorb the toxin with the charcoal. If you still have the dead fish you might be able to look for somewhere you can send them to be tested for heavy metals or toxicology screening.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[DavidinGA]

I’m afraid of that. Which is why I am trying to come up with alternatives. In theory any other toxins should show up on the city water report I had above…. Do I try adding some metal binding resin?

I would at least be running some healthy amount of carbon on that system.

 

[DavidinGA]

Have you spoken with any of LFS and asked them if the city/area has any water quality issues they are aware of?