High alk for coral growth

[LXM26]

hi Im fairly new to reef keeping but have been on the greener side of the fence with the hobby Question is i turned my first tank into a frag tank so my new tank doesn't look too cluttered. Question is maintaining alk high help coral growth? Does high alk affect coral color?(loss of color) Thanks for any help

 

[Cory]

Higher alklainity may help them grow faster. But id stick with 8.5dkh, right in the middle, just in case your test kit is reading +\- 1 or 2 dkh. (That level gives room for error)

 

[mcarroll]

Unless you are farming coral, fast growth is not what I would worry about. It's also not the main reason to keep alkalinity slightly elevated - safety is.

Unless you have an automatic doser that keeps levels updated several times per day, your alkalinity will swing low in between every single dose you make.

Dosing the level above the critical level of about 7.0 or 7.5 dKH gives you more time to get around to that dose before bad things, like pH swings, start to happen.

Make sense?

 

[Diesel]

Depends on other parameters too, No3, Po4.

What's you ALK and CAL sitting at as we speak?

 

[dbl]

Agree with @Diesel on this one - depends on other parameters. For instance, I've found letting Alk rise over about 9 dKH in an ULNS is not a good idea.

 

[eb2292]

I keep mine around 8.5-9. I get great growth and color. Too high of alk or a swing too low or too high will cause color loss and/or RTN. 8.5dkh is the sweet spot.

 

[mcarroll]

Agree with @Diesel on this one - depends on other parameters. For instance, I've found letting Alk rise over about 9 dKH in an ULNS is not a good idea.

I keep mine around 8.5-9. I get great growth and color. Too high of alk or a swing too low or too high will cause color loss and/or RTN. 8.5dkh is the sweet spot.

That's a factor related to carbon dosing vs anything particular to corals or a particular level of alkalinity or other water parameters. (Healthy corals in a healthy, non-carbon-dosed environment do not display this sensitivity, behavior, or whatever we want to call it.)

My theory is simply that carbon dosing is stressful in some way to corals, making them susceptible to this condition.

Carbon dosing is our hobby's term for "nutrient-enrichment" (aka "pollution" to normal folks)...which is a well-researched topic regarding corals. I haven't found anyone who's tested acetic acid or ethanol specifically, but generally speaking corals exhibit stress-symptoms like "burnt tips" or even death when exposed to most "nutrient enrichment" schemes. It's complicated since corals live with ALL the water parameters and ALL the side effects, not just what gets tweaked by us....light, PO4, NO3, CO2, Fe, etc all matter in the equation. (Redfied's ratio comes up a lot in posts as well as the scientific articles.) There seem to be very few folks who carbon dose their tank (this is not the same as activated carbon for anyone new following along) that have any sensitivity to these facts. @Russ265 @robert and a few others on here do (trying to recall more usernames off-hand...lousy memory:mad, however...and their experiences are definitely worth following.

Outside of carbon dosing (and some similar circumstances where DIC, DOC or both are elevated), raising alkalinity (even significantly) shouldn't be a problem for corals.

Following on the model established by many successful reefers before me, I ran my reef at 4.0 meq/L (11+ dKH) alkalinity for years while I was manually dosing the tank. Color and growth were phenomenal.

More importantly, this gave me plenty of headroom (time) to get the next dose into the tank before the "critical level" was reached where problems like pH swings can start happening. (Around 2-2.5 meq or 6-7 dKH, in my experience.)


A lot of words, but still just $0.02.

 

[G8trBait16]

I used Red Sea Coral Pro salt for 3 months, growth was great with my Alk at 12.0-12.4, but lost some color. Now I am using Aquaforest Probiotic and my Alk is 8.2-8.6, growth is still doing well, but colors are getting a lot better.

 

[Russ265]

If you have a dirtier tank and STRONG lighting, then you can raise the alk to 12 ime.

conversely.
if you have a low nutrient system and weak lighting, you are safer in the 6.5-8 area.

increasing alk does lay a skeleton down faster, but it comes at stress for the meat of the coral to lay on it, as well and the symbiodinium to provide energy.

it is a bit complicated, hence it is easier to tell the average person "just do 7-8 alk and call it a day".

colors are tweaked in other ways...

 

[mcarroll]

increasing alk does lay a skeleton down faster, but it comes at stress for the meat of the coral to lay on it,

I'm curious on this specific point if you have read any papers that say this or if this is anecdotal/conventional wisdom or based on your own experience?

(All are fine, I'm just curious which it is. I haven't seen this specific point about growing flesh addressed in the science so far yet. Links welcome if you have any!)

 

[Russ265]

I'm curious on this specific point if you have read any papers that say this or if this is anecdotal/conventional wisdom or based on your own experience?

(All are fine, I'm just curious which it is. I haven't seen this specific point about growing flesh addressed in the science so far yet. Links welcome if you have any!)

rather well-known but a good primer

http://www.biolbull.org/content/141/2/350.full.pdf

part 2 - nitrogen/carbon/ irradiance

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...and_Corals/links/5400be670cf2c48563aeaa66.pdf


i cannot find the 3rd... there was an article that had an experiment that elevated nitrogen levels and that growth wasnt hindered as long as light was 500+. the reason was because both symbiodinium and it's host both vie for carbon (alk) and if the it was maintained, neither the protist or the coral would lose out.

i really wish i could find it as i have put it in to practice during the r2r acro contest.

found it...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.1999.44.3.0716/full


all in all, the coral needs to be treated as 2 different entities. not just "my coral".

hope this helps


edit- part 1 was redundant to the last article

 

[Salty1962]

I tried a high ALK tank a few years back in my 90G DT, @10dKH, and I did have faster growth but my nutrient levels were pretty high. In a frag tank I would not go over 8.5dKH to give you wiggle room as things change much quicker in a frag tank, typically smaller water volume. JMO

 

[Russ265]

updated for the last article.

these are the concepts i use when i decide where to run my alk.

7-8 is fine for most
9-10 is semi aggressive. minimal risk -barring you have nutrients
11-12+ is very aggressive imo.

 

[mcarroll]

rather well-known but a good primer

http://www.biolbull.org/content/141/2/350.full.pdf

part 1 of the puzzle.... (sulfide gunks it up though)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.4319/lo.1978.23.5.0989/full

part 2 - nitrogen/carbon/ irradiance

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...and_Corals/links/5400be670cf2c48563aeaa66.pdf


i cannot find the 3rd... there was an article that had an experiment that elevated nitrogen levels and that growth wasnt hindered as long as light was 500+. the reason was because both symbiodinium and it's host both vie for carbon (alk) and if the it was maintained, neither the protist or the coral would lose out.

i really wish i could find it as i have put it in to practice during the r2r acro contest.

found it...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...5s&s=04323d0c03da09873b268101ab14209fed5e1f77



all in all, the coral needs to be treated as 2 different entities. not just "my coral".

hope this helps

Nice! Will have to digest those and get back around to you. (Last one is a dead link, BTW.....hate most of these research publishers as they definitely go out of their way to make the info hard/$$$ to get.)

You will probably like these...some are more current (but not contradictory so far as I can tell initially):

• Macroalgae Decrease Growth and Alter Microbial Community Structure of the Reef-Building Coral, Porites astreoides
• Long-term effects of nutrient and CO2 enrichment on the temperate coral Astrangia
• Fast Growth May Impair Regeneration Capacity in the Branching Coral Acropora muricata

Please also find the attachment.....it may be the most fascinating IMO.

 

[mcarroll]

(All of those links you gave address the meat-growing/stress connection, BTW? I've got notes on most of the other related points, so I'm really really after something specific...or as specific as possible.)

 

[Russ265]

(All of those links you gave address the meat-growing/stress connection, BTW? I've got notes on most of the other related points, so I'm really really after something specific...or as specific as possible.)

ive updated the last link.

so the meat-growing / calcium carbonate growing connection is there. Also with different varying variables.

...as far as a smoking gun goes. there are just too many guinea pigs on r2r with "alk burn". i never really looked in to something solid to point me there.

unfortunately, it is hard enough to get a white paper on 2 variables much less 3 to 4.

irradiance
nutrients
bicarbonate
calcification
replication

i was showing the complexity because in one article, it states nitrate levels slow growth, in another, yes it does, unless irradiance and bicarbonate are abundant. (why more nutrients allow more alk)

if you are looking for 1 reason, i hate to say it is very complicated.

the 2nd one i may remove because the last link has been found. - i was using it until i could find it. and yes. they are all linked.

 

[mcarroll]

i was showing the complexity because in one article, it states nitrate levels slow growth, in another, yes it does, unless irradiance and bicarbonate are abundant. (why more nutrients allow more alk)

Check out the "Long term results..." article first.

 

[mcarroll]

if you are looking for 1 reason, i hate to say it is very complicated.

I think most carbon dosers* are looking and hoping for a "simple fix" to overstocked/overfed tanks.

My idea is to show that "carbon dosing" may fix the nitrate number, but as a system which is part of the microbial food web, it isn't that simple.

* The only thing I've ever used "carbon dosing" for is vinegar to dissolve kalkwasser in order to raise calcium and alkalinity. Anything that happened related to "nutrient management" was coincidental and went unnoticed.

 

[Russ265]

Check out the "Long term results..." article first.

i see it references marubini and thake 99 which is my 3rd article.

this is quite a lengthy paper. ill read the rest when i get home.

good to find another reef nerd and thanks for sharing these!

-the attached article about symbiodinium is on target with what ive read as well but doesnt get as indepth as i like. perhaps ive read too much on the subject.

 

[Russ265]

I think most carbon dosers* are looking and hoping for a "simple fix" to overstocked/overfed tanks.

My idea is to show that "carbon dosing" may fix the nitrate number, but as a system which is part of the microbial food web, it isn't that simple.

* The only thing I've ever used "carbon dosing" for is vinegar to dissolve kalkwasser in order to raise calcium and alkalinity. Anything that happened related to "nutrient management" was coincidental and went unnoticed.

while i understand your thought-process with carbon dosing, i just want to make sure that any reference i made of carbon uptake was bicarbonate.