High Nitrates!...What could be causing this?

[McMullen]

I can't believe no one has suggested micro scrubbing........

Seriously though, I wouldn't stop the green water, just reduce. Your clam probably still needs it. Definitely crank up your lighting over the Cheato. I too run one 24hrs. I would not start carbon dosing, your problem is easy to fix, don't complicate your setup. And don't panic over your nitrates, with simple changes it will get better. Just like it took time for Nitrate to creap up that high, take time reducing to where your comfortable.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I have to dose alkalinity daily to keep it at 8.5. My calcium depletes slower so after changes alone are generally sufficient for that. I will look for the thread of vinegar dosing. Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have to dose alkalinity daily to keep it at 8.5. My calcium depletes slower so after changes alone are generally sufficient for that. I will look for the thread of vinegar dosing. Thanks!

That's normal, and some mixes have so much more calcium than alkalinity that when demand for both is low, water changes can suffice for calcium for a while.

The demand is typically 18-20 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity.

 

[sarces]

Hello.. im here to learn... ive been doing a lot of reading on carbon dosing ..... and i like the vinager method more than anything but i still yet to come up to read anything concise about direction on how to do it step by step, do i dose anything els?? If someone can point me in the right link i would appreciate it.

 

[FishOfHex]

Hi all,
Last night I tested with a new Salifert Nitrate test kit and my Nitrates were at about 50PPM. I am trying to figure out what is causing this spike but I am not too sure what it could be. Here is the run down of equipment and livestock I currently have...

Equipment/filter media-
125 G 6 foot long tank with 36 G sump
Reef Octopus space saver skimmer rated for 300 gallons
two filter socks
carbon and GFO reactor
Refugium with baseball sized ball of Chaeto and 15 pounds of miracle mud
4 units of Chemi Pure elite
two Hydor Koralia Evolution powerheads rated for 1500 GPH each (one on each side of the tank)
3 Kessil A360s placed about 8 inches above the water.

Live Stock -
1 large Fox Face
1 medium Blue Tang
2 FireFish
1 Chromis
1 Coral Banded Shrimp
Squamosa Clam
3 Lobo heads
a few Acan heads
Several Zoa frags/colonies
120 lbs of live sand and rock

I feed pretty lightly. Everyday I feed 1/4 sheet of Sea Veggies to the tang and Foxface which they devour in seconds, then I feed a pinch of flake food and a small amount of PE Mysis and a 1/4 cube of forzen Spirulina. I watch the fish eat this and they seem to eat it all pretty quickly, so I don't believe that I am over feeding. I also have been Dosing Red Sea's coral nutrition program (4 ML of formula A and B daily) based on the recommendations on the package. The only other thing I feed is a Poland Spring cap full of Phytoplankton green water to the tank daily for the clam.

I am thinking that maybe the green water solution I am dosing to the tank for the clam is the reason for my Nitrate spike. The clam is over 4" so I am beginning to think that it doesn't need the green water to survive and that is what might be causing my issue. The clam is doing great, so I may turn down the dosing of the green water to once a week.

Few other details, my Chaeto does not seem to grow. I am lighting the fuge 6 hours a day from midnight to 6 AM, but the Chaeto is still the same size as when I bought it months ago. Some one had suggested get 3 or 4 mangroves for the fuge, so I might go get some of those this weekend.

If anyone can offer some advise on what I could do to lower the nitrates and what could be the cause of my nitrate spike, I'd appreciate it.


Water Parameters
Nitrates - 50PPM
Phosphates - 0
Calcium - 430PPM
Alk - 8.5 dkH
Magnesium - 1335
Salinity - 1.025
PH - 8.1
Temp 78

Some of the most common causes for high Nitrates are Over feeding, Live rock leaching nitrates into the water, your RO filters needs changed and or your DI is depleted. You best bet is to take a step back and look at everything you put into the tank. Also make sure you have a daylight bulb over your chateo to ensure its growing quickly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hello.. im here to learn... ive been doing a lot of reading on carbon dosing ..... and i like the vinager method more than anything but i still yet to come up to read anything concise about direction on how to do it step by step, do i dose anything els?? If someone can point me in the right link i would appreciate it.

Here's one on vinegar:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

and one on vodka:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

The only issue I have with them is the scaling/dosing per tank size.

 

[sarces]

Thanks randy. I have read that the only thing that confuses me is it states to dose with kalk... is it necessary to dose something else when i dose vinegar??and r the doses too much or too little ??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Dosing vinegar with calcium hydroxide in it is one fine way, and a way i have used, but it is not the only way. Dosing straight vein gar is fine, as long as you dose slowly.

The problem with the doses is they do not scale properly with the tank size, and the ramp up seems unnecessarily slow. I'd use the 100 gallon recommendations scaled to your tank size, and maybe go a bit faster in the ramp up of dose over time.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

Some of the most common causes for high Nitrates are Over feeding, Live rock leaching nitrates into the water, your RO filters needs changed and or your DI is depleted. You best bet is to take a step back and look at everything you put into the tank. Also make sure you have a daylight bulb over your chateo to ensure its growing quickly.

Hey man, thanks for the input. I just did a 30% water change yesterday using fresh saltwater that was made from a BRS RODI filter. The carbon and sediment filters do not looked clogged and the DI resin has just started to look brown near the bottom of the canister. I bought new carbon and sediment filters, but haven't installed them because the TDS meter is still reading the output as 0.00. I have had this system for over 6 months though and haven't changed the cartridges. The water in my town is pretty clean (TDS meter reads the water in around 0.08 TDS), and since I haven't seen any degradation of the water out quality, I haven't seen the need to change the filters yet. Before the new water went into my tank I tested the new saltwater for Nitrates and it was 0. After the water change, later that night, I tested my display for Nitrates and it was still at 50PPM! I really do not believe I am over feeding at all. I have a large foxface, a medium blue tang, 2 firefish and a blue green chromis in a 125g display and I feed the tiniest pinch of flake food and about half a penny sized piece of PE Mysis a day. I feed about 1/4 sheet of nori, which the foxface and blue tang devour in seconds, about every other day. I have stopped the green water solution for the clam as an everyday dose. Instead, I now dose that once a week. Nothing else gets dosed into my tank. I change my filter socks out once or twice a week depending on whether or not they're clogged. I clean my skimmer cup twice a week. I have the fuge lit for 12 hours when the main display's Kessils are off with a 6,500k CFL bulb. My fuge has chaeto, which honestly doesn't look like it's growing, 15-20 lbs of miracle mud and some rock. I also run a carbon and GFO reactor, and a whole bunch of Chemi Pure Elite. I have NO IDEA why my Nitrates are so high, especially right after a water change. I vacuum my sand every time I do a water change, but obviously I can't get to it all unless I uproot all my rocks in order to do so. You mentioned in your post above that my live rock could be leaching nitrates into the water. I've never heard of this, but I've only been in this hobby for a little over a year. How can I figure out if this is the case, and what can I do about it? What would make my rock leach nitrates?

 

[Lynn52]

I've been having a similar issue. My tank is very similar to yours as far as size and equipment. I noticed it in December when I suddenly lost 4 apparently healthy fish and several corals over the course of a week. My nitrates were much higher than yours. They maxed out the Salifert test so well above 100. The salifert was a second kit purchases to double check readings in SeaChem kit. 4 months later I am finally down to something a little less than 25. I know my issues were caused by lack of water changes. I had surgery and was not allowed to lift anything over 10 pounds for several months. To bring them down I returned to my normal weekly water change schedule of once a week but doubled the volume I changed from 10% to 20%. It has been a slow process and as long as you remove more nitrate in each change than was added by the inhabitants of the tank between changes you will eventually get there.

 

[McMullen]

How deep is your sand bed? Disturbing deeper beds can release badness. Could the miracle mud be leaching?

I do not think your overfeeding by any stretch, perhaps under feeding, but I feed two to three times a day when I'm able.

I had a problem with cheato not growing until I dosed Iodine, then it exploded! You may consider a simple iodine test kit before dumping something in.

Before you spend money and complicate your system you must find the source of your problem. First of all, don't panic over a Nitrate of 50! You've tested RODI/salt mix and tested 0. You have reduced green water. If after reducing green water nitrates are still 50, then thats not your problem. I would like to know more about vacuuming the sand bed and miracle mud. If your vacuuming the bed because there is junk settling then vacuuming is not the solution, rather flow. You purchased a new powerhead, making three. Has this helped with anything? How long has miracle mud been in the system?

It is extremely difficulty but try and make one simple change at a time, wait a week maybe even two before you retest.

Adding carbon dosing and reactors at this point is like trying to lose weight or get into shape by buying "fitness and weight loss supplements." You've gotta learn to eat healthy and if sedentary learn to move your body. Supplements are not going to do the work for you! So, if you were shooting for Nitrates of 0 (I wouldn't) and they were 7, you could then consider "supplementing," your already successful husbandry. But you don't try and fix Nitrates of 50 by adding supplements when there is very likely an easy solution/explanation. This of course is only my opinion! Just remember, look at your inhabitants, if they look healthy then remind yourself you have time to fix this slowly!

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I could try testing and dosing for Iodine. I never have before. I have also had the same piece of chaeto in the fuge for over a year. Maybe I need to trash can that piece and start with a new fresh piece. As far as my water change schedule I usually do a 20-30 gallon water change once a month. I know that's probably not enough, but I have a fairly lightly stocked tank, so I was hoping I could get away with that. I have heard of people that do no water changes and have great results. Just to be clear my fish are all totally fine. The higher nitrates do not seem to phase them whatsoever. Also, my soft corals seem to love it. I have seen some awesome growth on my zoas since the higher nitrates starting occurring. It's the other corals that aren't doing too well. My lobos are receding from their skeletons, my Acans completely died, and a plate coral I have is also retreating from its skeleton. I also notice that I NEVER have to dose calcium in my system. I test calcium once a week and it does not move. It stay solid at 425ppm. I dose 14.5ml of alk each day which keeps it at 8.5dkH and magnesium holds strong at 1350 all the time. The high nitrates, I believe, are causing my skeleton based corals to die slowly which is why my calcium is not reducing. I am hoping that lowering the nitrates which help my corals to calcify and grow. Soft corals are cool, but I want to get nitrates down so I can do LPS corals.

The sand bed is about 1.5 to 2 inches deep. Some areas are deeper than others. It's 120 pounds of live sand in the system. Also, I guess the miracle mud could be leaching. The manufacturer states that 50% of the miracle mud should be changed each year. I changed 50% about 6-8 months ago, but the idea with the mud is to kind of just let it be.

To answer you question about the power heads. I was thinking of buying another, but I have not. I still currently have 2 Hydro Koralia power heads. I could add a third or fourth to the back of the tank to increase flow or I could upgrade to two more powerful heads.

 

[FishOfHex]

Hey man, thanks for the input. I just did a 30% water change yesterday using fresh saltwater that was made from a BRS RODI filter. The carbon and sediment filters do not looked clogged and the DI resin has just started to look brown near the bottom of the canister. I bought new carbon and sediment filters, but haven't installed them because the TDS meter is still reading the output as 0.00. I have had this system for over 6 months though and haven't changed the cartridges. The water in my town is pretty clean (TDS meter reads the water in around 0.08 TDS), and since I haven't seen any degradation of the water out quality, I haven't seen the need to change the filters yet. Before the new water went into my tank I tested the new saltwater for Nitrates and it was 0. After the water change, later that night, I tested my display for Nitrates and it was still at 50PPM! I really do not believe I am over feeding at all. I have a large foxface, a medium blue tang, 2 firefish and a blue green chromis in a 125g display and I feed the tiniest pinch of flake food and about half a penny sized piece of PE Mysis a day. I feed about 1/4 sheet of nori, which the foxface and blue tang devour in seconds, about every other day. I have stopped the green water solution for the clam as an everyday dose. Instead, I now dose that once a week. Nothing else gets dosed into my tank. I change my filter socks out once or twice a week depending on whether or not they're clogged. I clean my skimmer cup twice a week. I have the fuge lit for 12 hours when the main display's Kessils are off with a 6,500k CFL bulb. My fuge has chaeto, which honestly doesn't look like it's growing, 15-20 lbs of miracle mud and some rock. I also run a carbon and GFO reactor, and a whole bunch of Chemi Pure Elite. I have NO IDEA why my Nitrates are so high, especially right after a water change. I vacuum my sand every time I do a water change, but obviously I can't get to it all unless I uproot all my rocks in order to do so. You mentioned in your post above that my live rock could be leaching nitrates into the water. I've never heard of this, but I've only been in this hobby for a little over a year. How can I figure out if this is the case, and what can I do about it? What would make my rock leach nitrates?

I recommend you stop any additive exp cal alk mag. If the levels drop you just need to figure out what one could of caused it. As for cheato not growing you could be low in iron but i wouldnt dose any of that atm. As for live rock how long have u had it where did u get it? Was it already live? Dry? Think of it as a sponge in a reef everything u add goes into it and over time it can release back into the water. Iv had this problem before with rock. Also sand can hold a lot and cause the same problems. Let me know

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I have had the rock in the tank as long as the tank has been setup. The rock has been in the tank for about a year and 2 months. The rock was live, definitely not dead. It was not deep purple covered in Coraline algae at all, but definitely live rock. I got it from a guy I go to to get all my fish related items. It's live fiji rock that he ordered directly from Fiji. It was flown up and delivered to me within 1 week. I put it in the tank and never had a problem. There were no hitch hikers other than a few Aiptasia. If the rock is the problem, what should I do? should I increase my cleanup crew? I have a whole bunch of snails in there now and I have a Coral Banded Shrimp. The CBS doesn't do too much other than be an ******* and move frag plugs around. Due to the fact that I have him in there though, I am unable to get other cleaner shrimp or crabs. He'll just decimate them fairly quickly.

 

[McMullen]

I agree iron could also be issue of cheato in addition to iodine. Your cheato is not "bad," simply doesn't have what it needs to grow. I also agree to stop dosing everything except Alk. Your water changes are maintaining Calcium. When you vacuum the sand bed, are you doing so because there is detritus build up?

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I used to have some seripous brown sand issues, which I believe was coming from pellet feed I was feeding. I have since stopped feeding the pellet food and have noticed that the brown sand is now gone. I vacuumed the sand this time in hope of getting a nice deep clean to the tank to help reduce my Nitrate. Should I not vacuum the sand bed anymore?

 

[FishOfHex]

I have had the rock in the tank as long as the tank has been setup. The rock has been in the tank for about a year and 2 months. The rock was live, definitely not dead. It was not deep purple covered in Coraline algae at all, but definitely live rock. I got it from a guy I go to to get all my fish related items. It's live fiji rock that he ordered directly from Fiji. It was flown up and delivered to me within 1 week. I put it in the tank and never had a problem. There were no hitch hikers other than a few Aiptasia. If the rock is the problem, what should I do? should I increase my cleanup crew? I have a whole bunch of snails in there now and I have a Coral Banded Shrimp. The CBS doesn't do too much other than be an ******* and move frag plugs around. Due to the fact that I have him in there though, I am unable to get other cleaner shrimp or crabs. He'll just decimate them fairly quickly.

id keep dosing equal parts of cal and alk at all time to make sure you dont put the tank out of balance thats the last thing you need. What i did back when this happened to me is remove anything that holds or adds to no3 and no4. At this point you need to find the source so remove additives and i would recommend changing filter socks before they clog or remove them all together for now. Wet skim. Finally you could remove all sand and keep the minimum amount of rock but id stay away from that for now. I personally run bare bottom tank iv never liked sand but thats just me. Remember go slow and dont change a lot at once so you can pinpoint the problem.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

I definitely don't want to rid the tank of live rock and sand. I am maintaining calc and alk where it needs to be and monitoring it on a weekly basis. I could try to remove the filter socks, but I think they do a decent job of removing some nasty stuff from the tank. With that said, even though I do wash the socks after I remove them from the tank, I have been reusing the same socks for a while now. Maybe I can try getting all new socks as my first step.

 

[McMullen]

Sand and rock can stay, if your washing the socks it's fine! I would not vacuum sandbed, there are beneficial critters and bacterial in the sand.

There have been so many suggestions and comments it's a bit difficult to keep track. Could you please provide a brief summary of changes you've made or tried and what results you've seen, if any? I think we need a reset point. Re-evaluate what may be going on.

 

[Thraciandrummer]

As far as changes I've made, not much. I noticed that every time I added corals to the tank they either wouldn't grow or slowly die off. In an effort to find out the cause of that, I started testing for all the logical parameters (Calc, Alk, Mag). I noticed that those three parameters were a little off because I never dosed anything. So at the beginning of this year I began dosing and frequently testing those three parameters until I got them in balance with each other and knew exactly how much to dose each day. I then figured with those in balance my corals would begin to grow, but no luck. I read on these forums that Nitrates prevented the calcification of coral skeletons so I tested Nitrates with an API kit, which gave me a zero reading. I didn't trust the result because API kits suck so I got a Salifert kit about a month ago which read 50. Other than corals not growing I had no other indication of high nitrates. I did notice that I have a few spots on the rocks where some green bubble algae is growing, but nothing too major. That algae began growing when I started dosing the green water solution for my clam. I could have very well had high nitrates for the entire life of the tank, I just didn't have a good enough test kit to give an accurate reading till now.