I don't know enough about the history of regulation in the industry to make a comment one way or the other as to it's impact on the environment today. I do know that no or low impact solutions exist, such as dry rock, and aquaculture fish and corals. It is entirely possible to have a no impact tank in this hobby.
Hobby as a whole: Blessing or curse?
- Thread starter Greatreefer
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Dtackett
Valuable Member
yes, it is. it just comes down to people being willing to spend the extra money. my last 2 tanks were all no impact tanks. but they weren't very impressive either.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
How are captive raised fish any better than wild caught? When reef fishes breed in the wild each pair of fish produce 10,000-100,000 offspring depending on the species, most are predated on as larvae, but some will settle on the reef, of those that settle, most die within the first week, due to that niche already being occupied and the new fish being driven off.
When 'resident' fish are collected off the reef they are quickly replaced by a new fish that would otherwise be unable to settle.
What is the impact to the reef, particularly in poorer nations if they cannot collect wild fish. Their families need to be supported some way, usually in a way that is far more harmful to the reefs; more destructive commercial fishing, farming, in which chemicals runoff into surrounding waters, or other high pollution industry.
What of the environmental impact of fish breeding facilities? Their practices can certainly be invaluable as serving as an 'ark' for endangered species, but the ornamental fish trade can't sell endangered species anyway. The pumps and lighting for the tanks, as well as heating, cooling, and operating the facility, as well as the employees driving to and from all have an environmental impact.
Our hobby helps developing nations that collect ornamental fish, vast improvements are being made in how the fish are collected, as well as these fish help put a face on reef inhabitants, more people are educated and more people care about the well being of our reefs becof this hobby.
When 'resident' fish are collected off the reef they are quickly replaced by a new fish that would otherwise be unable to settle.
What is the impact to the reef, particularly in poorer nations if they cannot collect wild fish. Their families need to be supported some way, usually in a way that is far more harmful to the reefs; more destructive commercial fishing, farming, in which chemicals runoff into surrounding waters, or other high pollution industry.
What of the environmental impact of fish breeding facilities? Their practices can certainly be invaluable as serving as an 'ark' for endangered species, but the ornamental fish trade can't sell endangered species anyway. The pumps and lighting for the tanks, as well as heating, cooling, and operating the facility, as well as the employees driving to and from all have an environmental impact.
Our hobby helps developing nations that collect ornamental fish, vast improvements are being made in how the fish are collected, as well as these fish help put a face on reef inhabitants, more people are educated and more people care about the well being of our reefs becof this hobby.
Flashy Fins
Active Member
Thanks [HASHTAG]#eatbreakfast[/HASHTAG] - I was reading through this thread wondering why no one was talking about the impact of reducing or removing demand from areas of the world that, without the ornamental trade, have very little short-term incentive to take care of their reefs. There is no shortage in the ocean of most fish we keep, and the rate at which they breed far exceeds the number collected for the trade.
I think captive breeding is a wonderful thing, but I do not think it should replace wild caught fish, except in specific cases:
- threatened species
- species with extremely limited ranges (e.g. banngai cardinal)
- deep water fish that are very dangerous to collect (ventralis anthias)
- fish endemic to areas where trade legislation appears likely to end collection in the not-so-distant future (some would say Hawaii)
I think captive breeding is a wonderful thing, but I do not think it should replace wild caught fish, except in specific cases:
- threatened species
- species with extremely limited ranges (e.g. banngai cardinal)
- deep water fish that are very dangerous to collect (ventralis anthias)
- fish endemic to areas where trade legislation appears likely to end collection in the not-so-distant future (some would say Hawaii)
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eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
My understanding on bangaii cardinals, is that, although only endemic to the Bangaii atoll, and their numbers are threatened there, rhey had been introduced around Bali, and are invasive there, and it is around Bali that they are currently being collected.
Flashy Fins
Active Member
Interesting! I had not heard that. I remember reading a few years ago about disease wiping them out - is that still a problem?
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Not sure about the disease part, but I do know 10-15 years ago bangaii's directly from Bangaii atoll fared poorly and were a sensitive fish, but about 8 years ago they started coming in super hardy and this coincides with the time they became invasive around Bali.
It makes sense that the cardinals were more delicate since Bali is the closest hub to Bangaii and it is a three day boat ride between the two locations in tropical temps.
RMS18
I keep water chemistry as my hobby
Whether you buy wild caught fish and corals, they are still going to be collected. You being a seasoned reefer should take the opportunity to buy what you scan and provide them a good home over a newbie who wants to put tangs and angels in a 20 gallon tank that have been set up for 4 weeks. When I lose a zoa I'm mad that I failed and feel guilty, so I understand how you would prefer they stay in the wild. I also do not think this hobby will ever be self efficient, I do hope this hobby never becomes anything bigger than it is now, and hope it actually becomes smaller.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
Breeding them should have nothing to do with wild populations. That needs to be dealt with, but it should not be the detriment of the captive breeding programs. Support the programs until we take all of their supply. Then possibly supplement the gap of supply/demand with invasives. If we don't have the programs in place and then we "fix" the invasive issue, what happens then? We'll only have wild caughts as we'll have let the breeding programs go stale.
@Flashy Fins , I believe there was a virus. I have no idea what happened with it. I hope we didn't slow it down too much with that, as there are programs where they don't have this virus. Live Aquaria are selling some, so I'm not sure where they are getting them from. Whoever it is needs to step up production, which they could if they had 100% of our support.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
But the wild populations have almost everything to do with captive breeding programs. If the species aren't being threatened in anyway, why not buy wild caught fish? Mother nature culls far more ruthlessly than captive breeding programs, making for hardier stronger fish, with less deformities and broader genetic input.
Lionfish Lair
Renee
Guess we have different views on that.
I view the hobby just like the seafood I eat. I have no problem with either one as long as they are responsibility managed. I think there are areas that need greater management, but really with environmental problems and unchecked commercial fishing I don't lose too much sleep over what this hobby does.
Kungpaoshizi
Valuable Member
Na. The hobby will kill off numerous species before humans destroy the oceans for drinking water.(its already started)
In the meantime I've forced myself to not buy anything new and only frag what I've been growing. Its the least I can do.
In the meantime I've forced myself to not buy anything new and only frag what I've been growing. Its the least I can do.
eatbreakfast
Fish Nerd
Which species are in danger from ornamental fish collecting vs. commercial fishing, industrial and agricultural run off, and oil spills?
OP
OP
Greatreefer
Active Member
you have a point there.
OP
OP
Greatreefer
Active Member
wow. There have been a TON of really good points brought up in this thread. Some of these comments are actually on bigger issues that I never really thought of before that actually support both sides the captive breed and wild caught debate. It seems that this industry and hobby as a whole isn't all just black and white and has both a good side and a bad side.
with that said I think it also boils down to the individual reefer who should do their research on not only the species that they desire but also take into account the company or organization that supplies to the animal to the consumer That way the hobbyist knows where that particular species came from, who collected it, how it was collected ect. However, I'm not sure if that type of information is actually publicly available or not.
with that said I think it also boils down to the individual reefer who should do their research on not only the species that they desire but also take into account the company or organization that supplies to the animal to the consumer That way the hobbyist knows where that particular species came from, who collected it, how it was collected ect. However, I'm not sure if that type of information is actually publicly available or not.
Thales
Valuable Member
BR is dead. Check out MBI. http://www.mbisite.org/ Breeding in not a panacea and it seems that local sustainable collecting/culture has more long term positive impact on wild reefs, and most of it is not being done by the hobby than captive breeding. Most of the species bred in captivity at this point are one offs and not available in the trade.
Thales
Valuable Member
I agree. Every company that has tried to focus on selling even only sustainably sourced animals (bred or collected) goes out of business because the bulk of the hobby doesn't care at all about this stuff. Most people in the hobby never even make it to a website like this to know to care.
That said, you can source your sustainable animals and cultured animals, you just have to do a bit of work to know where they come from and pay a bit more.
Thales
Valuable Member
At this time there really is no collective hobby or industry, only a bunch of small communities that don't work well together. Any time a central organization to promote best practices for the hobby/industry comes up, others in the hobby/industry tear it down. "We", sadly, don't work well together. I don't know what to do about that except keep trying, but that is getting difficult as outside orgs are involved and they don't care if people have animals in their living rooms or not - they are also way better organized and funded.
Putting stuff from tanks is currently a no no because of the dangers of mixing animals from different places, so unless the animals have been kept separated for animals from different parts of the world, putting them into the ocean is a bad idea.
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Members of our reefing club have multiple breeding pairs in their DT's and from what I've observed and heard, it is not difficult to raise this species in captivity. It is a bit tricky to scoop the fry up once the male spits them out, tricky also, to run multiple Artemia cultures to keep the fry fed, but once settled, I've seen upwards of 40 juveniles raised to sub-adult stage, per breeding tank. We have traded or sold them to recoup costs amongst the reefing fraternity here
I also believe that our local LFS stocks this species from one of the garage breeders we have here and relies on him to supply rather than from the wild
I'm sure many other home hobbyists are doing this
