Hoping for some guidance regarding long term nutrient management method

[Ontheway]

Thanks for this response, because this brings up an area that I could use some additional clarification on. My understanding of this is that running the Matrix in a reactor would help to lower Ammonia and Nitrite, but wouldn't be helpful with denitrification? I was under the impression that you wanted some area of low flow and low oxygen (like the bottom of a deep sand bed, or deep inside the live rock) to produce the anaerobic area needed to lower nitrates? That was my reasoning for placing the Matrix stones into this slotted "bin" in a lower flow area that was after the filter socks and skimmer (to prevent as much detritus as possible). Again, I'm not totally clear on this, so would appreciate any insight.

In fact, matrix media is primarily sold for denitrification and siporax is known for ammonia to nitrate cycle. The key for denitrification is slow flow. Slow flow in sump or reactor allows denitrifying bacteria to function in oxygen-limited parts of media pile. Whats bad with heavily limiting flow is lack of nitrate for extended periods results with hydrogen sulfide formation.

What ever method you use, keep an eye on Po4 levels. If you Wipe out Po4, biological methods cannot remove nitrates.

 

[rocknut]

^^ this...

The most stable systems are typically the simplest. Live rock and live sand have been used for decades for biological filtration and are really all that's needed to run a successful reef tank (a skimmer is optional).

High NO3 is a result of either low numbers of denitrifying bacteria, or bacteria that are not operating effectively. Exporting detritus by periodically cleaning the sand bed and blowing out the live rock helps greatly in reducing NO3 and PO4 by removing organics and allowing sufficient flow into the substrate.

Thanks for this - and that does coincide with my original plan. Since it has been awhile since I have started a tank from scratch, and without using some sort of system (zeovit, or other), any idea on how long it should generally take for the denitrifying bacteria to increase in population to start making a bigger dent in the nitrate numbers? I understand that the bacteria needed to process Ammonia and Nitrite can become established fairly quickly, but am unsure about the time frame regarding denitrifying bacteria?

 

[rocknut]

So, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read this post, and offer up all this information, and suggestions. Based on these responses, I think the best way forward is as follows:

1. Sit tight with the existing system as-is, and let everything mature.
2. Most likely run some GFO if my PO4 numbers climb too high again, but only to keep levels between 0.03 - 0.05ish (not down to zero).
3. Continue to run the tank without fish until most likely August (which was always my original plan), then add slowly.
4. Continue with 10% weekly water changes, blowing off the rock, vacuuming detritus from overflow and sump.

I figure that if I am still having high NO3 numbers once the tank hits the 4-5 month point, then maybe look at adding an ATS.

Thanks again!

 

[Nano sapiens]

While it is true that various species of denitrifying bacteria exist in anoxic environments, the location of these environments is varied and often surprising. For example, consider that every sand grain in the sand bed has aerobic nitrifying bacteria on the surface exposed to flow and anoxic denitrifying bacteria residing in the porous interior. This 'coupled' arrangement allows for very efficient nitrogen cycle processing. However, if the substrate becomes clogged, then the process is impeded and a rise in NO3 is typically the result. This is why a simple system reef tank with just a shallow sand bed and small amounts of live rock with high flow can still show very low levels of NO3.

Hydrogen sulfide is produced by reducing bacteria in anaerobic envirnoments such as the bottom layers of a 6" layer of undisturbed sand bed. Hence the warning not to disturb the deeper layers of a DSB.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Thanks for this - and that does coincide with my original plan. Since it has been awhile since I have started a tank from scratch, and without using some sort of system (zeovit, or other), any idea on how long it should generally take for the denitrifying bacteria to increase in population to start making a bigger dent in the nitrate numbers? I understand that the bacteria needed to process Ammonia and Nitrite can become established fairly quickly, but am unsure about the time frame regarding denitrifying bacteria?

Denitrifiers do take longer to establish. I have heard ranges from a few months to half a year or more, but each system is different.

FFT - I have run simple LR and LS systems for over 30 years and in each one once NO3 is reduced, PO4 does the same. Therefore, I have never had use for the PO4 reducing products (or any media), but from what I see on the forums problems seem to arise for some when specific media target one or the other.

 

[rocknut]

Denitrifiers do take longer to establish. I have heard ranges from a few months to half a year or more, but each system is different.

FFT - I have run simple LR and LS systems for over 30 years and in each one once NO3 is reduced, PO4 does the same. Therefore, I have never had use for the PO4 reducing products (or any media), but from what I see on the forums problems seem to arise for some when specific media target one or the other.

Thanks for that - I appreciate the additional information. That does make me feel better about giving the denitrifying bacteria longer to develop. I will continue to pop back onto this thread in the future and update this to help others down the road.

Thanks again.

 

[Browner20]

@rocknut
If you are returning to the "old way" why not wait to allow the system to mature on its own instead of trying to "kick" start it and create the same system swing you just reset? With the reset you should stick with your original plan. Your system might be instructive to the rest of us if you just see where it goes without the confusion of multiple methods again. Just a thought.

Siporex is sold by Pentair Aquatics in the United States.

I would have to second @Lowell Lemon on the KISS method. I got back into the hobby about 5 years ago after a decade hiatus and started my SPS tank with GFO and Carbon reactors and a refugium. FWIW I went to pick up some frags several months ago from a local hobbyist with an amazing SPS display. We were talking shop and discussing my struggles with the last batch of frags I lost (dinos) and he told me he got rid of his refugium and stopped using GFO and carbon. I brought the frags home and took all my "extras" off-line as well. Only live rock, plenty of flow, huge skimmer, 2 part dosing w/ mag and trace once in a blue moon - Frags are doing awesome! Too early to tell on long term success but I think there is a tendancy with all this new stuff to complicate things.

If I were you, I would wait at least 9 months maybe longer with just the live rock, sand and skimmer.

 

[rocknut]

I would have to second @Lowell Lemon on the KISS method. I got back into the hobby about 5 years ago after a decade hiatus and started my SPS tank with GFO and Carbon reactors and a refugium. FWIW I went to pick up some frags several months ago from a local hobbyist with an amazing SPS display. We were talking shop and discussing my struggles with the last batch of frags I lost (dinos) and he told me he got rid of his refugium and stopped using GFO and carbon. I brought the frags home and took all my "extras" off-line as well. Only live rock, plenty of flow, huge skimmer, 2 part dosing w/ mag and trace once in a blue moon - Frags are doing awesome! Too early to tell on long term success but I think there is a tendancy with all this new stuff to complicate things.

If I were you, I would wait at least 9 months maybe longer with just the live rock, sand and skimmer.

Thanks for taking the time to read this thread and respond!

I'm really glad I decided to start this thread, because my original plan had been to run everything in the KISS school of thought, but I found myself slowly starting to buckle and jump right back into the same scenario I was in before. Difficult to stick with a plan sometimes when there is just so much information, new trendy methods, and new equipment out there. Really, really helpful to see everyone's comments and encouragement to stay the course with my original plan.

Sounds like we had some similar experiences in the past. I battled Dino's, slime algae, and all sorts of other issues before moving forward with my reboot. Woke up one Sunday Morning and the thought just popped into my head "start over and run the tank like your very first tank from ten years ago". It's been interested to see many others doing something similar...

I am actually putting a Geo Kalk Reactor online in the next week, and will be running this with my Apex DOS (pulling RODI water from the top off reservoir) to dose a set amount of Kalk into the water each night. Still have two dosing heads available for two part as well for down the road, but feel good about using Kalk. Other than that, I have TONS of flow in the 150 gallon - 3 Apex WAV pumps, plus a Tunze Wavebox, and the return pumps. Sticking with T5 lights and an old school 30" Venturi skimmer.

 

[rocknut]

I would have to second @Lowell Lemon on the KISS method. I got back into the hobby about 5 years ago after a decade hiatus and started my SPS tank with GFO and Carbon reactors and a refugium. FWIW I went to pick up some frags several months ago from a local hobbyist with an amazing SPS display. We were talking shop and discussing my struggles with the last batch of frags I lost (dinos) and he told me he got rid of his refugium and stopped using GFO and carbon. I brought the frags home and took all my "extras" off-line as well. Only live rock, plenty of flow, huge skimmer, 2 part dosing w/ mag and trace once in a blue moon - Frags are doing awesome! Too early to tell on long term success but I think there is a tendancy with all this new stuff to complicate things.

If I were you, I would wait at least 9 months maybe longer with just the live rock, sand and skimmer.

Also, out of curiosity: what have your nutrient levels been looking like running with just rock and skimmer? Have you noticed a big jump?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think that plan seems reasonable. August is a long time to wait!

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I think that plan seems reasonable. August is a long time to wait!

Nothing good happens in a hurry in a Reef Tank...just my personal experience.

 

[Browner20]

@rocknut I have not had detectable levels of nitrate (Red Sea) since I've had the tank, except for my vacation auto feeder incident of 2013. My phosphate levels have been at or close to 0 as well. I feed reef frenzy pretty heavy and my fish are all fat, almost cartoonish. It is a 60 gal tank with a 20 gal sump, an old dolphin ampmaster 3500 pump, reef octopus Diablo 160 skimmer, and a maxspec gyre 150. The pump turns over the tank at least 8x per hour and the gyre is on during the day @ 60% pulse so the fish get their exercise. I figure all the water movement keeps all of the detritus in suspension until it is caught by the filter sock or skimmer.

It was the lack of nutrients that threw me for a loop with the dinos but some people say that dinos can thrive in ultra low nutrient environments - mine did! I still haven't been able to 100% eradicate them but dipped every one of my rocks in hydrogen peroxide bath several months ago, shook them off in RO vigorously, then back in the tank. Dinos pop up on the plumbing, back of the tank but I just manually remove what I see now and they haven't shown an ability to repopulate on the rocks at this point. I did see where they squeezed themselves into an area on one of my montis where it was shaded and the tissue receded. That area will get a good scrub today.

 

[Browner20]

I should mention my 8 new SPS frags, about 1" each, have all almost doubled in length/width in the last three months and all are covering up my sloppy epoxy/super glue placement methods. Again not a long term success story but I am enjoying not having to worry about as much stuff!

I don't know if this will make sense but it almost seemed like using GFO on my setup was counter-productive. It could have been operator error but it seemed like after the GFO was in the reactor for a month it would start to form this orangey slime algae on the inside of the outlet tubing of the reactor and it seemed to spread to other areas of the sump. The GFO had 0, Z-E-R-O affect on the dinos. When the hobbiest who sold me the frags said he took his GFO offline along time ago, I thought why not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Nothing good happens in a hurry in a Reef Tank...just my personal experience.

That may be true in many cases, but very few people wait multiple months before adding their first fish, and personally I'm not sure I see the benefit.

 

[Ontheway]

That may be true in many cases, but very few people wait multiple months before adding their first fish, and personally I'm not sure I see the benefit.

I cannot comment on dino, briopsis, hair algae, cyano, bubble alg etc problems in forums. Since I never experienced any of them, (almost) do not know even how they look like. There are two startups in my poor 3 years history. First one waited 1.5 months before live stock. Second (current), close to 3 months. In first year of second tank, nitrate levels were always 25+ due to some initial mistakes. No micro or macro weed problems encountered. May be just my luck

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I cannot comment on dino, briopsis, hair algae, cyano, bubble alg etc problems in forums. Since I never experienced any of them, (almost) do not know even how they look like. There are two startups in my poor 3 years history. First one waited 1.5 months before live stock. Second (current), close to 3 months. In first year of second tank, nitrate levels were always 25+ due to some initial mistakes. No micro or macro weed problems encountered. May be just my luck

It's nice to be lucky. I am usually lucky too.

 

[Ontheway]

It's nice to be lucky. I am usually lucky too.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

To the guy who asked, Matrix is ceramic afaik. Ceramics can leach.. Of course Seachem didn't have any comment when I inquired further.

And Matrix and Seachem Denitrator are 2 different products. (I think it's just a size and flow difference)
http://www.seachem.com/matrix.php
http://www.seachem.com/denitrate.php

 

[rocknut]

That may be true in many cases, but very few people wait multiple months before adding their first fish, and personally I'm not sure I see the benefit.

Hi Randy, felt like I should offer a little more explanation on this: honestly, I think I read this in Eric Borneman's Coral book a long time ago? I think he was discussing the role of patience in regards to reefing, and made a comment about how if reefers would allow the microfauna in the tank to develop free from predators for six months, it would put the tank in a more stable place going forward. When I started my "re-boot" I decided that this might be a great opportunity to practice patience, so figured I would give it a shot. Honestly, I figure there was a 50/50 chance that I would actually stick with this plan, but did catch a few Cirolanid Isopods in the first week of having the new rock in the tank, and took this as a sign to stick with my no fish for 4-5 months plan. That being said, you are probably right.

 

[rocknut]

@rocknut I have not had detectable levels of nitrate (Red Sea) since I've had the tank, except for my vacation auto feeder incident of 2013. My phosphate levels have been at or close to 0 as well. I feed reef frenzy pretty heavy and my fish are all fat, almost cartoonish. It is a 60 gal tank with a 20 gal sump, an old dolphin ampmaster 3500 pump, reef octopus Diablo 160 skimmer, and a maxspec gyre 150. The pump turns over the tank at least 8x per hour and the gyre is on during the day @ 60% pulse so the fish get their exercise. I figure all the water movement keeps all of the detritus in suspension until it is caught by the filter sock or skimmer.

It was the lack of nutrients that threw me for a loop with the dinos but some people say that dinos can thrive in ultra low nutrient environments - mine did! I still haven't been able to 100% eradicate them but dipped every one of my rocks in hydrogen peroxide bath several months ago, shook them off in RO vigorously, then back in the tank. Dinos pop up on the plumbing, back of the tank but I just manually remove what I see now and they haven't shown an ability to repopulate on the rocks at this point. I did see where they squeezed themselves into an area on one of my montis where it was shaded and the tissue receded. That area will get a good scrub today.

Thanks for offering that additional information. That is encouraging, as it seems like we have a similar set-up: I have a five foot tank, with a five foot coast to coast overflow running the length of the tank. Having that long overflow and three Apex WAV pumps, Tunze Wavebox, and my return pump flow, it has been my intention to keep detritus moving in the tank, and offer as much surface skimming as possible to move things into the sump, where I have two filter socks, then my skimmer.

When I had my major dino outbreak a few summers back, I was running EcoBak pellets (biopellets), and had very, very low nutrients at this time. I tried pulling the biopellets offline, running a massive amount of GFO, lots of water changes, no water changes, and I'm sure some other things trying to beat the dinos back, but eventually, it was dosing Red Sea No3PO4-X that ended up getting rid of them. Not sure why, but it seemed to do the trick.