Hoping for some guidance regarding long term nutrient management method

[Oceansize]

My thoughts on nitrate export:

Carbon dosing: cheap & easy, but high-maintenance (should dose every day for consistency). Discipline required: easy to fall off the wagon, so to speak, when it's something you need to remember daily, therefore consistency is often so-so.

ATS: the "natural" method. Many people love and swear by them. Some maintenance required, some DIY skills required, , trial & error to find the right size, inconsistent results for the uninitiated. Unwieldy when working on other equipment in the sump.

Sulphur Denitrator: more expensive (~$300 for store-bought), ultra-low maintenance, small footprint, very consistent results. One month to break in. Personally I don't see how this method is less "natural" than an ATS, but I don't care to have that debate, so decide for yourself.

Based on my observations detailed above, I would go with carbon dosing only if money is a factor or the tank doesn't have much of a nitrate problem to begin with. Between ATS and Sulphur Denitrator, I prefer the denitrator because of my focus on ultra-low maintenance, no desire to fiddle with DIY stuff, I like things to work the first time (LOL), and very limited space under the tank.

Notice none of these thoughts include additives. All of these proprietary formulas out there, no one knows what's in them due to corporate secrecy (gotta protect their 11 herbs & spices), should be used as a last resort, IMO.

 

[Nano sapiens]

It was common during the old Berlin syslem days to let a tank set up with newly purchased live rock to mature 6 months or more before coral and delicate fish were added. The idea was to let the micro-fauna, sponges, periphyton, etc. build up which theoretically promotes stability and establishes large colonies of tasty, crunchy criters. Nowadays, everyone's in a hurry and if the tank hasn't cycled in two weeks fingernail biting ensues (ok, slight exaggeration)

Personally, if I were doing a new tank build I'd hold off for at least a few months before stocking fi I wasn't using LR/LS from an established reef system.

 

[rocknut]

It was common during the old Berlin syslem days to let a tank set up with newly purchased live rock to mature 6 months or more before coral and delicate fish were added. The idea was to let the micro-fauna, sponges, periphyton, etc. build up which theoretically promotes stability and establishes large colonies of tasty, crunchy criters. Nowadays, everyone's in a hurry and if the tank hasn't cycled in two weeks fingernail biting ensues (ok, slight exaggeration)

Personally, if I were doing a new tank build I'd hold off for at least a few months before stocking fi I wasn't using LR/LS from an established reef system.

Appreciate your comments - that pretty much sums up what I was shooting for when planning my reboot, and decided to let the tank settle for an extended period of time without any fish. The last few times I have set up a tank, I have used some form of "system" and have been adding corals and fish within two weeks. Not knocking that approach, but I could see the value of allowing time for the critters to reproduce, and the tank to stabilize before going to the next step. Honestly, it's been easier to be patient because of this live rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater - there is so much life, and so much to watch, I don't feel anxious to add anything else.

 

[rocknut]

My thoughts on nitrate export:

Carbon dosing: cheap & easy, but high-maintenance (should dose every day for consistency). Discipline required: easy to fall off the wagon, so to speak, when it's something you need to remember daily, therefore consistency is often so-so.

ATS: the "natural" method. Many people love and swear by them. Some maintenance required, some DIY skills required, , trial & error to find the right size, inconsistent results for the uninitiated. Unwieldy when working on other equipment in the sump.

Sulphur Denitrator: more expensive (~$300 for store-bought), ultra-low maintenance, small footprint, very consistent results. One month to break in. Personally I don't see how this method is less "natural" than an ATS, but I don't care to have that debate, so decide for yourself.

Based on my observations detailed above, I would go with carbon dosing only if money is a factor or the tank doesn't have much of a nitrate problem to begin with. Between ATS and Sulphur Denitrator, I prefer the denitrator because of my focus on ultra-low maintenance, no desire to fiddle with DIY stuff, I like things to work the first time (LOL), and very limited space under the tank.

Notice none of these thoughts include additives. All of these proprietary formulas out there, no one knows what's in them due to corporate secrecy (gotta protect their 11 herbs & spices), should be used as a last resort, IMO.

Thanks for your feedback. Do you have any experience with sulphur denitrators? I'm curious if using something like an aqua lifter pump is accurate and reliable enough to deliver a consistent drip rate through the reactor, or if people are using the high end (expensive) peri pumps like the Master Flex? That would definitely add some $$$ to the start up...

 

[Waterjockey]

Thanks for your feedback. Do you have any experience with sulphur denitrators? I'm curious if using something like an aqua lifter pump is accurate and reliable enough to deliver a consistent drip rate through the reactor, or if people are using the high end (expensive) peri pumps like the Master Flex? That would definitely add some $$$ to the start up...

I dose carbon. I was using vodka until about 10 days ago, when I switched to vinegar. I use a bubble magnus dosing pump, so it is dead simple, once you have figured out your maintenence dose....once every few months buy a gallon of vinegar, insert pump suction line and forget about it. Done.

Cheers!

 

[Oceansize]

Thanks for your feedback. Do you have any experience with sulphur denitrators? I'm curious if using something like an aqua lifter pump is accurate and reliable enough to deliver a consistent drip rate through the reactor, or if people are using the high end (expensive) peri pumps like the Master Flex? That would definitely add some $$$ to the start up...

Aqua lifter is more than enough. If you are using a sump, the denitrator will not be below the water line and therefore you will need two aqua lifter pumps (the Korallin already comes with one, so you'd need to get just one extra one). If you are NOT using a sump, then you only need the one pump that comes with the Korallin to return water to the DT, since a gravity siphon gets the water from the DT to the denitrator.

Regardless, a dosing pump is not necessary or beneficial since the drip rate is determined by how open or closed the valve is on the water tubing.

 

[RoyalGrammaJohn]

Stop carbon dosing, stop bio pellets, stop zeo , and all these crazy things. All you need is live rock , a good skimmer, live sand ( weekly to bi weekly sand vacuuming detritus works wonders) and water changes depending on how big your tank is for how often. Carbon dosing can cause to many problems there seems to be a correlation between carbon dosing and Dino's from what I read. That's why you were having to many problems. I have a 55 gallon tank which is a low tech setup , 2 marineland hob 350 filters , live rock and weekly water changes of 25 % and I'm not even running a skimmer. My nitrates on average are around 4-5ppm. Phosphates are less than 0.02. I highly recommend sand vacuuming every week or bi weekly to get detritus build up and also blow out the rocks weekly with a turkey baster. This is what I do. You will be surprised how much waste your getting just by doing that. I don't have a sump so I don't have a skimmer and my tank is to close against the wall for me to empty it out and make room for a hob skimmer. I get away with it by weekly water changes. And with a new tank put beneficial bacteria liquids in after water changes. Something simple like API stress zyme or seachems brand. Oh and use poly filter and chemi pure blue that's also helps tremendously. That's what I stuff in one of my hob filters. No carbon dosing liquids or any of that crap.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I guarantee every possible combination of nitrate/phosphate reduction IS natural, in some shape, form, or process.
Always makes me laugh when someone argues 'this is more natural!' We only HAVE natural things to work with.

 

[Waterjockey]

Stop carbon dosing, stop bio pellets, stop zeo , and all these crazy things. All you need is live rock , a good skimmer, live sand ( weekly to bi weekly sand vacuuming detritus works wonders) and water changes depending on how big your tank is for how often. Carbon dosing can cause to many problems there seems to be a correlation between carbon dosing and Dino's from what I read. That's why you were having to many problems. I have a 55 gallon tank which is a low tech setup , 2 marineland hob 350 filters , live rock and weekly water changes of 25 % and I'm not even running a skimmer. My nitrates on average are around 4-5ppm. Phosphates are less than 0.02. I highly recommend sand vacuuming every week or bi weekly to get detritus build up and also blow out the rocks weekly with a turkey baster. This is what I do. You will be surprised how much waste your getting just by doing that. I don't have a sump so I don't have a skimmer and my tank is to close against the wall for me to empty it out and make room for a hob skimmer. I get away with it by weekly water changes. And with a new tank put beneficial bacteria liquids in after water changes. Something simple like API stress zyme or seachems brand. Oh and use poly filter and chemi pure blue that's also helps tremendously. That's what I stuff in one of my hob filters. No carbon dosing liquids or any of that crap.

I'm glad that works for you, and you have no requirement to dose anything that doesn't have anything but positive effects for you. However, not everybody's tank works like that. I do all the husbandry things you mentioned (but at a higher frequency than you do), except waterchanges. I do those less often. Instead, I input a source which is clearly limited in my tank. Carbon. I add carbon and allow the "natural" microbes in my tank work farther along in the process. If your tank consumes say calcium, you add calcium...if it consumes alk, you add alk. Mine also consumes carbon...so I add it....and no nitrate issues regardless of waterchanges. I could argue that adding carbon is just as "natural" as anything else added to the tank. I do not have cyno or dino issues...some might...everybody's tank is different.

Cheers!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Randy, felt like I should offer a little more explanation on this: honestly, I think I read this in Eric Borneman's Coral book a long time ago? I think he was discussing the role of patience in regards to reefing, and made a comment about how if reefers would allow the microfauna in the tank to develop free from predators for six months, it would put the tank in a more stable place going forward. When I started my "re-boot" I decided that this might be a great opportunity to practice patience, so figured I would give it a shot. Honestly, I figure there was a 50/50 chance that I would actually stick with this plan, but did catch a few Cirolanid Isopods in the first week of having the new rock in the tank, and took this as a sign to stick with my no fish for 4-5 months plan. That being said, you are probably right.

That's a fine reason.

You could get other fish (herbivores) in the meantime if you want. Like a yellow tang or such depending on the tank size.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I guarantee every possible combination of nitrate/phosphate reduction IS natural, in some shape, form, or process.
Always makes me laugh when someone argues 'this is more natural!' We only HAVE natural things to work with.

I agree most are natural. The polymeric resins that bind organics and thereby reduce the degradation of organics into N and P do not exist in nature except when made by man and hence are not natural. Materials such as Purigen.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

It's a different form of plant (and it doesn't even require sunlight)

 

[rocknut]

Just wanted to throw out an update on my tank's progression, specifically regarding nutrient processing as this might be helpful to anyone that was interested before:

So, it has been about six weeks since I added my first batch of live rock (and just under five weeks since I added the second batch). I still have no fish in the tank, and am adding KZ Spongepower (4 drops each night), a small amount of Reef Chili (2 spoons which is the suggested amount for a 40 gallon tank), and a few small pieces of raw shrimp that I feed directly to the Flower Anemones, Brittle Stars, and Decorator Crabs once each week.

Here are tonights test results:

NO 3 seems to be between 50 and 100, but definitely closer to 100.

PO4 level works out to about 0.09. I am running about 1/2 a cup of GFO which I change out each week to keep it between 0.06 and 0.09.

Definitely stresses me out a bit that these levels (especially the NO3 number) is so high. However, here is the weird part: I am only cleaning my glass once each week, and am not getting a ton of algae growth on the glass? Also, the three SPS corals that I added exactly 30 days ago are all doing really well, which doesn't seem to make much sense. Here is a shot of one of them from tonight:

Not saying it is going to win any awards, but it is growing nicely and is really colored nicely, I think. Definitely wouldn't guess my tank was near 100 NO3, and 1.0 PO4.

I did make one change over the past few weeks, and moved my Seachem Matrix into my old Zeovit reactor. I did this because it seemed to be trapping lots of detritus sitting in the bin, in my sump. Also, this is the recommended way per the instructions on the package. I am able to place my 1/2 cup of GFO on top of the Matrix in the reactor as well.

With all of this in mind, I do have to admit that I am getting a bit anxious to see some sort of progress on the NO3 numbers. I did discover that my coast to coast overflow on the display tank had accumulated a TON of detritus, and honestly, I thought I had discovered the source of my NO3 issue, but even after removing all of it, the numbers haven't moved at all.

Anyway, it was suggested earlier in this thread that this could be a benefit to others to see how the tank develops and processes nutrients on its own, so figured that I will continue to add updates. Appreciate any suggestions or advice on anything I could be doing in the meantime that I might be missing.

Thanks.

 

[rocknut]

Posted a video of the filtration system for the tank on Youtube, and would appreciate anyone's comments on this, specifically if they notice anything that looks off and might be causing my high nutrient levels?


Also, I wonder if my decision to not add fish is somehow working against me? Is is possible that I have somehow stalled the tank's cycle by not having any fish that supply waste to be processed? I do feed my Rock Anemones, Brittle Stars, Decorator Crabs a combined total of half a piece of shrimp once each week, and have added a little Reef Chili for all the filter feeders once each week as well, but maybe that isn't enough? Again, not trying to be impatient, but want to be sure I am moving in the right direction. Have no problem waiting this out if the rock should eventually bring my nitrates down on their own, but if I'm missing something, or should be doing something different, I would rather change my course now, instead of later.

Thanks again!

 

[Bob Escher]

Agreed on the water changes. Also, I will check again, but I do have new cartridges and DI stages from BRS in my four stage RODI, and am getting 0 TDS water. I have been using a mix of Instant Ocean, and Reef Crystals on this tank (used ESV on my last tank, but didn't want to spend that kind of money again.)

Floyd Turbo is exactly the ATS I was looking at. Wasn't thinking of running the tank solely on that, but figured it might be a good fit to clean up whatever nutrients I can't get with my skimmer, filter socks, and rock.

RockNut: there is a new Red Sea product out called NO3/ PO4 X management it's specifically for reduction of these issues. I started using it and it seems to be helping a lot

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Hold the course and see where the natural system takes you. You are only in about 6 weeks since the last rock so why not keep to your plan to avoid the last tank upset? You can do it just hang in there with your plan!

 

[Browner20]

@Lowell Lemon I have to second Lowell as you seem fixated on tinkering! All tanks progress at different stages. Your nitrate and phosphate numbers seem extreme but with all the tinkering and products it is hard to narrow in on a source. I would stick with just bio and mechanical filtration for the time being and see where it goes. Since you don't have a heavy amount invested in livestock, what is the risk?

If it were me I would take the matrix and GFO offline and stop adding all of the food sources until the numbers go down. Then add livestock slowly and continue to test and allow the bio to catch up as you add livestock. Just dose two part w mag, kalk, or calc reactor and you should be set. I only add a bag of really high grade carbon every several months for a couple weeks to pull out any heavy metals that may have been introduced.

 

[rocknut]

Hold the course and see where the natural system takes you. You are only in about 6 weeks since the last rock so why not keep to your plan to avoid the last tank upset? You can do it just hang in there with your plan!

Thanks for the encouragement, Lowell! Funny how difficult it can be to just leave things alone, even though that has been my plan.

 

[rocknut]

@Lowell Lemon I have to second Lowell as you seem fixated on tinkering! All tanks progress at different stages. Your nitrate and phosphate numbers seem extreme but with all the tinkering and products it is hard to narrow in on a source. I would stick with just bio and mechanical filtration for the time being and see where it goes. Since you don't have a heavy amount invested in livestock, what is the risk?

If it were me I would take the matrix and GFO offline and stop adding all of the food sources until the numbers go down. Then add livestock slowly and continue to test and allow the bio to catch up as you add livestock. Just dose two part w mag, kalk, or calc reactor and you should be set. I only add a bag of really high grade carbon every several months for a couple weeks to pull out any heavy metals that may have been introduced.

Appreciate your help. I promise I am not actually trying to tinker. I look at it like sailing a ship: I want to just point the ship in the right direction, and then take my hands off and let it sail to the destination, but want to be sure I should't be giving it a *nudge* to make sure it is going the right way, if that makes any sense? Anyway, after thinking about this a lot yesterday, I had basically come to the same conclusion. I think that having those numbers so high just made me concerned that I was somehow sabotoging myself, I guess.

Again, thanks for chiming in and helping me not loose sight of the goal, and helping me stay the course!

 

[Lowell Lemon]

It is human nature to think we can affect the right change at the right time with natural systems that are 'under' our control. But really is there any natural system that is under our control? I am constantly reminded of the desire to control outcomes that are 'above my pay grade' when all my attempts fail. Parenting is one of those instructive experiances as well as creating a 'natural' environment for aquatic creatures. It would seem to be a better course to work inside both our abilities and the abilities of a small natural system for greater success. It seems the more we micro manage natural systems the more crashes we experiance and read about. I am encouraging you to stay the course for the benefit of others including myself (yes self interest is involved). You see if the your natural system establishes some level of stability then I have a better road map to follow when I establish my next system. I believe you are on the right course if the goal is stability and easier care for your system. Wishing you all the best!