How do you maintain a cycled tank without adding ammonia?

[livinlifeinBKK]

I added caribsea arag alive fiji pink sands. Will this add any biodiversity at all?

Tbh, I'm not 100% sure about this but i heard that bagged live sand with the exception of oceans direct really doesn't do much...I've even heard a few times from different sources that the bacteria in most bagged live sand is actually freshwater bacteria which won't help a reef tanks biodiversity. If you wanted to get some TBS sand from the Gulf that would definitely help. Honestly I'm a fan of live rock fresh from the ocean which is more biodiverse than you could possibly imagine. Where i am it's easy to source from the ocean but I'd imagine where you are your best bet is maricultured live rock which is also great from what I hear.

 

[92Miata]

I do not have the lights on now. What is a good range of phosphate to maintain? I have a chart from BRS that has a range of 0.01 to 0.03[Ocean value of 0.005] and was planning to follow that.

I am also realizing that, searching the forum and reading answers is not enough. You have to start a thread for proper answers.

Honestly, exact number isn't super important, as long as the tank isn't phosphate deficient. .05-.1 is what I tell newbies if they're using good test kits. Newer tanks will grow algae, and no amount of nutrient control changes that. There's too much uncolonized rock and too little competition. Plenty of SPS tanks running higher though.

You'll see a million new tanks with zero phosphates covered in algae, and just as many old tanks with 1ppm phosphate and no algae. Trying to kill algae via phosphate deprivation without killing everything else via phosphate deprivation isn't generally successful.

 

[cdnco2004]

I have a 55g tank that is completely cycled. It did 2PPM ammonia to 0 in 24hours. But my quarantine tank is taking a little longer than 24hours to 0 ammonia. So I will not be able to add fish to quarantine which also means I will not be adding fish to main tank for another month or so. I am also planning to add coraline algae into the main tank before the ugly phase. So I will not be able to add ammonia to maintain the cycle. Is there any other way I can maintain the cycle?

Easy, you dont. Once its cycled you don't need ammonia. Also you don't need to worry about cycling QT tanks as you want to completely change out the water every few days.

 

[Nemoreef]

Easy, you dont. Once its cycled you don't need ammonia. Also you don't need to worry about cycling QT tanks as you want to completely change out the water every few days.

This is if you do not add copper correct? I will probably do this for inverts.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

This is if you do not add copper correct? I will probably do this for inverts.

For the inverts there would be very little ammonia buildup so i wouldn't imagine it would be such an issue...just an HOB filter with some sponges pieces or bioballs in the back can colonize bacteria so you don't have to change out water so much...for an invert QT tank i see no reason not to cycle the tank something in the back of an HOB filter...then again, i would never bother to QT inverts

 

[bnord]

Fallow your CUC is about the only way. CUC can, but its very unlikely they will carry any fish diseases into your tank. Most LFS, and any reputable seller online(Reef cleaners) keep inverts in thier own systems away from any fish. So it's not much of a concern.

Also Saltwater Aq.com states there interest are raised in fish-less systems

 

[Soren]

I'm not too keen trying to break into the counter-information shared so far, but I have learned a few concepts in this hobby that I think are irrefutable. Sorry, I don't have hard data to back up this information yet, so take it for what it is worth...

The concept of cycling is over-complicated in this hobby as though it is a once-and-done operation. I firmly believe this not to be true.
The "initial" cycle (what most people seem to mean with 'cycling the tank') is to ensure enough bacterial population to handle the ammonia bio-load of your intended first fish/invertebrate/coral introductions into the tank. What you need for stability is enough nitrifying bacterial population established to handle most (if not all) of the load of the ammonia-producers in the tank at any given time. If there is not enough bacteria, there will be some measurable ammonia while the populations increase over time to consume the excess ammonia. Bacteria can go dormant for a time without just dying off, so there will be extra bacteria ready to awaken to consume small spikes of ammonia due to new introductions. I chose to consider a tank 'continuously cycling' based on nitrifying bacterial populations relative to bioload. The most significant measurement is the length of time for a measurable ammonia addition to be reduced to nitrites (which are toxic in freshwater but not toxic in saltwater). This is a better way to measure the population amount rather than just the presence of bacteria.

I do not believe that an unfed tank will keep live bacteria populations indefinitely to handle any bio-load.

Even for a quarantine tank, you will want to add an established population of nitrifying bacteria to avoid ammonia spikes high enough to harm/kill fish before the next water change. This is probably easiest achieved with a sponge filter from an established system. I keep extra sponge filters in my running systems/sumps so I have ready nitrifying bacteria populations for starting new systems (including quarantines). You may be able to keep up with ammonia production in a new quarantine tank through water changes only, but this is taking a risk if there is a heavy bio-load for the quarantine water volume or if you miss a water change for too long. I would not personally take such a risk. Sponge filters help with keeping tanks clean and also aid in aeration and some water movement while being unreactive with medications, so they are a good choice for quarantines.

For your case, there are a few options by my opinions, assuming you plan to quarantine all fish.
I will list them in order of my own priority if I was in your situation:
1. Add invertebrates/clean-up crew to the display from known vendors that sell invertebrates from fishless systems, feed the tank, ride through the 'ugly stage' unless something gets majorly out of hand, then add fish after the respective quarantine periods.
2. Add invertebrates/clean-up crew to the display, feed the tank, ride through the 'ugly stage' unless something gets majorly out of hand, keep fish out of the system past about 50 days from the last invertebrate introduction if you want to avoid fish disease introduction from invertebrates (this would be 'going fallow'), then add fish after the respective quarantine periods (may run consecutive to the 50 days fallow, since the systems are separated).
3. Quarantine fish, quarantine invertebrates, quarantine corals, only medicate quarantine tanks if necessary or disease is detected; ghost-feed the tank to keep up bacterial populations, regulate algae with light schedule until clean-up-crew can be added.
4. Add some fish and invertebrates to your system after the initial cycle, feed the systems according to animal needs, slowly introduce new fish after quarantine.

Sorry for so much in one post; hopefully I am not confusing the issue more. If you want more information or need confirmation from more experienced members according to my opinions/experiences, I will try to address the points as needed.

 

[Nemoreef]

I'm not too keen trying to break into the counter-information shared so far, but I have learned a few concepts in this hobby that I think are irrefutable. Sorry, I don't have hard data to back up this information yet, so take it for what it is worth...

The concept of cycling is over-complicated in this hobby as though it is a once-and-done operation. I firmly believe this not to be true.
The "initial" cycle (what most people seem to mean with 'cycling the tank') is to ensure enough bacterial population to handle the ammonia bio-load of your intended first fish/invertebrate/coral introductions into the tank. What you need for stability is enough nitrifying bacterial population established to handle most (if not all) of the load of the ammonia-producers in the tank at any given time. If there is not enough bacteria, there will be some measurable ammonia while the populations increase over time to consume the excess ammonia. Bacteria can go dormant for a time without just dying off, so there will be extra bacteria ready to awaken to consume small spikes of ammonia due to new introductions. I chose to consider a tank 'continuously cycling' based on nitrifying bacterial populations relative to bioload. The most significant measurement is the length of time for a measurable ammonia addition to be reduced to nitrites (which are toxic in freshwater but not toxic in saltwater). This is a better way to measure the population amount rather than just the presence of bacteria.

I do not believe that an unfed tank will keep live bacteria populations indefinitely to handle any bio-load.

Even for a quarantine tank, you will want to add an established population of nitrifying bacteria to avoid ammonia spikes high enough to harm/kill fish before the next water change. This is probably easiest achieved with a sponge filter from an established system. I keep extra sponge filters in my running systems/sumps so I have ready nitrifying bacteria populations for starting new systems (including quarantines). You may be able to keep up with ammonia production in a new quarantine tank through water changes only, but this is taking a risk if there is a heavy bio-load for the quarantine water volume or if you miss a water change for too long. I would not personally take such a risk. Sponge filters help with keeping tanks clean and also aid in aeration and some water movement while being unreactive with medications, so they are a good choice for quarantines.

For your case, there are a few options by my opinions, assuming you plan to quarantine all fish.
I will list them in order of my own priority if I was in your situation:
1. Add invertebrates/clean-up crew to the display from known vendors that sell invertebrates from fishless systems, feed the tank, ride through the 'ugly stage' unless something gets majorly out of hand, then add fish after the respective quarantine periods.
2. Add invertebrates/clean-up crew to the display, feed the tank, ride through the 'ugly stage' unless something gets majorly out of hand, keep fish out of the system past about 50 days from the last invertebrate introduction if you want to avoid fish disease introduction from invertebrates (this would be 'going fallow'), then add fish after the respective quarantine periods (may run consecutive to the 50 days fallow, since the systems are separated).
3. Quarantine fish, quarantine invertebrates, quarantine corals, only medicate quarantine tanks if necessary or disease is detected; ghost-feed the tank to keep up bacterial populations, regulate algae with light schedule until clean-up-crew can be added.
4. Add some fish and invertebrates to your system after the initial cycle, feed the systems according to animal needs, slowly introduce new fish after quarantine.

Sorry for so much in one post; hopefully I am not confusing the issue more. If you want more information or need confirmation from more experienced members according to my opinions/experiences, I will try to address the points as needed.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this. Among the options, I like option 2. This will allow me to quarantine the fish in an already cycled tank while the cleanup crew gets established. I do not have a cycled quarantine tank for inverts. Is 50 days enough for these fish disease parasites to die off? Can they stay in the tank dormant?
Another suggestion from earlier posts in this thread were to add some easy soft corals along with CUC to get some experience with corals and this will use up some of the nutrients.

 

[Soren]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this. Among the options, I like option 2. This will allow me to quarantine the fish in an already cycled tank while the cleanup crew gets established. I do not have a cycled quarantine tank for inverts. Is 50 days enough for these fish disease parasites to die off? Can they stay in the tank dormant?
Another suggestion from earlier posts in this thread were to add some easy soft corals along with CUC to get some experience with corals and this will use up some of the nutrients.

I think I've read that Cryptocaryon (sometimes called "ich" or white-spot disease) and Amyloodinium (commonly called "velvet") die off after about 45+ days without a host. Here is an article on parasites and fallow periods written by R2R resident fish medic Jay Hemdal (tag his username by adding the @ symbol ahead of his name if you want to ask him questions on the forum). If you want extra security to avoid disease introduction, you can wait longer (some old studies suggest as long as 76 days, but those numbers may be based on freshwater or low-temperature studies). There is no harm in waiting as long as you would like before introducing fish as long as there is enough food source for the bacterial populations.

Do you already have a cycled quarantine for the fish? Either way, I would recommend adding some sponge filters (even disconnected from air supply) into your system to start culturing bacteria in case you need to transfer bacteria to deal with an ammonia issue in a different tank.
I assumed you would rather not have a separate system for CUC quarantine, so my prioritized suggestions were centered around avoiding that.

Adding beginner corals, especially soft corals, would be fine and may help establish the system. Keep them as cheap as possible in case they do not survive and only introduce soft corals you may want in your system over the long-run, as they secrete chemical warfare and some are invasive over time.

Another point: Don't add too much CUC too fast, as many will die if there is not enough food source. Let the algae grow some before adding too many herbivorous CUC. You don't need to wait until it is out-of-hand, though, as that can lead to troubles later when some methods of trying to fix this issue cause other issues. I don't mind tanks that look somewhat ugly, so I usually allow the 'ugly stage' to ride without constantly chasing issues/water parameters to try to have a perfect tank. I prefer systems that mimic nature as much as possible, and algae is needed in nature. Proper parameters for corals are also proper parameters for algae, so it is more about using herbivores or algae turf scrubbers to limit the visible algae in the main system.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have a 55g tank that is completely cycled. It did 2PPM ammonia to 0 in 24hours. But my quarantine tank is taking a little longer than 24hours to 0 ammonia. So I will not be able to add fish to quarantine which also means I will not be adding fish to main tank for another month or so. I am also planning to add coraline algae into the main tank before the ugly phase. So I will not be able to add ammonia to maintain the cycle. Is there any other way I can maintain the cycle?

You can add a shrimp for 2-3 days and flush and monitor ammonia drops.
When ammonia drops to zero and stays at zero for 5 days and nitrate 20 or below- you are cycled. Important also is that you use dependable Test kits and not one like API or a badge that delivers false readings.
Ammonia Chloride is an option to using a shrimp.
Typical cycle is 14-21 days.
Adding Micro Bacter 7 or better yet Micro Bacter XLM will support the denitrification process

 

[Nemoreef]

You can add a shrimp for 2-3 days and flush and monitor ammonia drops.
When ammonia drops to zero and stays at zero for 5 days and nitrate 20 or below- you are cycled. Important also is that you use dependable Test kits and not one like API or a badge that delivers false readings.
Ammonia Chloride is an option to using a shrimp.
Typical cycle is 14-21 days.

My tank is cycled for a while now. I started in a brute trash can almost 2 months ago with some life rock and bottle bac. I have been adding 2PPM ammonia every other day to make sure it drops to 0 in 24hours. I use redsea test kits.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I think I've read that Cryptocaryon (sometimes called "ich" or white-spot disease) and Amyloodinium (commonly called "velvet") die off after about 45+ days without a host. Here is an article on parasites and fallow periods written by R2R resident fish medic Jay Hemdal (tag his username by adding the @ symbol ahead of his name if you want to ask him questions on the forum). If you want extra security to avoid disease introduction, you can wait longer (some old studies suggest as long as 76 days, but those numbers may be based on freshwater or low-temperature studies). There is no harm in waiting as long as you would like before introducing fish as long as there is enough food source for the bacterial populations.

Do you already have a cycled quarantine for the fish? Either way, I would recommend adding some sponge filters (even disconnected from air supply) into your system to start culturing bacteria in case you need to transfer bacteria to deal with an ammonia issue in a different tank.
I assumed you would rather not have a separate system for CUC quarantine, so my prioritized suggestions were centered around avoiding that.

Adding beginner corals, especially soft corals, would be fine and may help establish the system. Keep them as cheap as possible in case they do not survive and only introduce soft corals you may want in your system over the long-run, as they secrete chemical warfare and some are invasive over time.

Another point: Don't add too much CUC too fast, as many will die if there is not enough food source. Let the algae grow some before adding too many herbivorous CUC. You don't need to wait until it is out-of-hand, though, as that can lead to troubles later when some methods of trying to fix this issue cause other issues. I don't mind tanks that look somewhat ugly, so I usually allow the 'ugly stage' to ride without constantly chasing issues/water parameters to try to have a perfect tank. I prefer systems that mimic nature as much as possible, and algae is needed in nature. Proper parameters for corals are also proper parameters for algae, so it is more about using herbivores or algae turf scrubbers to limit the visible algae in the main system.

I think those 45 day fallow periods are if you're running your tank at 81 degrees...at lower temps you'd normally aim for i think it's more like 72-76 days...also, i doubt OP really needs to be concerned about chemical warfare among zoa's in a 55 gallon, especially at this point

 

[Soren]

I think those 45 day fallow periods are if you're running your tank at 81 degrees...at lower temps you'd normally aim for i think it's more like 72-76 days...also, i doubt OP really needs to be concerned about chemical warfare among zoa's in a 55 gallon, especially at this point

Agreed, but I also trust the information in Jay's article that I linked above, as he has much more experience than I do. The longer fallow period would be extra assurance of disease prevention if it would be desired. I would still personally just buy my CUC from sellers that have fishless systems and avoid the fallow consideration at tank start-up.

I also agree that chemical warfare is not a concern for initial introduction, more just something to be aware of for the long term of the tank depending on desired stock list. I'm just assuming no specific prior knowledge and offering the information out of caution.

 

[Nemoreef]

I think I've read that Cryptocaryon (sometimes called "ich" or white-spot disease) and Amyloodinium (commonly called "velvet") die off after about 45+ days without a host. Here is an article on parasites and fallow periods written by R2R resident fish medic Jay Hemdal (tag his username by adding the @ symbol ahead of his name if you want to ask him questions on the forum). If you want extra security to avoid disease introduction, you can wait longer (some old studies suggest as long as 76 days, but those numbers may be based on freshwater or low-temperature studies). There is no harm in waiting as long as you would like before introducing fish as long as there is enough food source for the bacterial populations.

Do you already have a cycled quarantine for the fish? Either way, I would recommend adding some sponge filters (even disconnected from air supply) into your system to start culturing bacteria in case you need to transfer bacteria to deal with an ammonia issue in a different tank.
I assumed you would rather not have a separate system for CUC quarantine, so my prioritized suggestions were centered around avoiding that.

Adding beginner corals, especially soft corals, would be fine and may help establish the system. Keep them as cheap as possible in case they do not survive and only introduce soft corals you may want in your system over the long-run, as they secrete chemical warfare and some are invasive over time.

Another point: Don't add too much CUC too fast, as many will die if there is not enough food source. Let the algae grow some before adding too many herbivorous CUC. You don't need to wait until it is out-of-hand, though, as that can lead to troubles later when some methods of trying to fix this issue cause other issues. I don't mind tanks that look somewhat ugly, so I usually allow the 'ugly stage' to ride without constantly chasing issues/water parameters to try to have a perfect tank. I prefer systems that mimic nature as much as possible, and algae is needed in nature. Proper parameters for corals are also proper parameters for algae, so it is more about using herbivores or algae turf scrubbers to limit the visible algae in the main system.

I do have a cycled quarantine tank. It is taking a little more than 24hours to 0 out 2 PPM ammonia. But I think it is ready. I don't mind the ugly phase, I am just trying my best to avoid. I am more worried about parasites and pests.
I also like to keep it as close to the nature as possible except for the pests

 

[Soren]

I do have a cycled quarantine tank. It is taking a little more than 24hours to 0 out 2 PPM ammonia. But I think it is ready. I don't mind the ugly phase, I am just trying my best to avoid. I am more worried about parasites and pests.
I also like to keep it as close to the nature as possible except for the pests

Sorry, I missed your earlier posts where you specified that information.

What bio-media do you have in your quarantine tank for bacteria to populate? I would not be worried about the cycle if it takes only a little more than 24 hours to drop 2ppm ammonia to zero, since that is still evidence of significant nitrifying bacteria populations. Do you plan to just observe the fish in quarantine until issues arise, or are you prophylactically treating/medicating in quarantine?

Understood on your other points.

 

[Nemoreef]

Sorry, I missed your earlier posts where you specified that information.

What bio-media do you have in your quarantine tank for bacteria to populate? I would not be worried about the cycle if it takes only a little more than 24 hours to drop 2ppm ammonia to zero, since that is still evidence of significant nitrifying bacteria populations. Do you plan to just observe the fish in quarantine until issues arise, or are you prophylactically treating/medicating in quarantine?

Understood on your other points.

I have seachem matrix and a sponge for biomedia in a tidal 55 hob filter. At the moment I also have 2 more socks[1L worth] of seachem matrix that I moved from main display to QT to speed up the cycling cos somehow the main display cycled weeks before QT. Plan is[was] to take these two socks back into the sump in main display and then add copper power at 2.5PPM. But now I have come across a lot more information in the last 12 hours or so. So I may make some changes.

 

[Soren]

I have seachem matrix and a sponge for biomedia in a tidal 55 hob filter. At the moment I also have 2 more socks[1L worth] of seachem matrix that I moved from main display to QT to speed up the cycling cos somehow the main display cycled weeks before QT. Plan is[was] to take these two socks back into the sump in main display and then add copper power at 2.5PPM. But now I have come across a lot more information in the last 12 hours or so. So I may make some changes.

I personally prefer observational QT instead of prophylactic medication, but the best method is the one you understand as completely as possible through research and feel comfortable administering effectively.

That sounds like a good bio-media set for a QT.

 

[Nemoreef]

I personally prefer observational QT instead of prophylactic medication, but the best method is the one you understand as completely as possible through research and feel comfortable administering effectively.

That sounds like a good bio-media set for a QT.

Yes from my research online, that was only one of the few bio media that did not absorb copper. I think the only disadvantage to observational QT is the wait time. Adding copper and prazipro would cut that in half. But if I go with inverts in display tank first, I might just do observational QT instead of treating with copper as I have to wait 72 days anyway.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Oops!! Most of my planning is based off of articles from this forum. Ok this is good info. So I really don't have to do anything.

The conclusion from earlier posts were to add some easy soft corals and ghost feed. That way they can use up some nutrients, and I will have something beautiful to look at while waiting for fish.

Please ignore Brandon as he also regularly "makes things up."

 

[Soren]

Yes from my research online, that was only one of the few bio media that did not absorb copper. I think the only disadvantage to observational QT is the wait time. Adding copper and prazipro would cut that in half. But if I go with inverts in display tank first, I might just do observational QT instead of treating with copper as I have to wait 72 days anyway.

It sounds like you are doing your research and have good plans!

Please ignore Brandon as he also regularly "makes things up."

He has useful experiences to share and is right on some things, but I definitely completely disagree on some of his shared ideas and don't like the "all or nothing, this is the true way, hill-to-die-on" mentality that comes across in so many messages...