How do you maintain a cycled tank without adding ammonia?

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes from my research online, that was only one of the few bio media that did not absorb copper. I think the only disadvantage to observational QT is the wait time. Adding copper and prazipro would cut that in half. But if I go with inverts in display tank first, I might just do observational QT instead of treating with copper as I have to wait 72 days anyway.

I'm not sure what this specific member means when saying observational QT but i do observational QTs and from my understanding, a typical observational QT usually is not carried out for longer, or even the same amount of time as a medicated QT. The purpose i do observational QTs is to get the fish eating well and make sure he's not displaying any obvious signs of disease which a healthy appetite and normal behavior are usually pretty good sign of...imo, a medicated QT is likely much more stressful for a healthy or sick fish and although it may cure a sick fish if you happen to get one, I'd expect the fish to be very stressed and likely have a long way to go before actually returning to a healthy fish at baseline...reason i do a brief observational QT

 

[Nemoreef]

I'm not sure what this specific member means when saying observational QT but i do observational QTs and from my understanding, a typical observational QT usually is not carried out for longer, or even the same amount of time as a medicated QT. The purpose i do observational QTs is to get the fish eating well and make sure he's not displaying any obvious signs of disease which a healthy appetite and normal behavior are usually pretty good sign of...imo, a medicated QT is likely much more stressful for a healthy or sick fish and although it may cure a sick fish if you happen to get one, I'd expect the fish to be very stressed and likely have a long way to go before actually returning to a healthy fish at baseline...reason i do a brief observational QT

I guess I did not name it right. My idea was to keep them out of the main tank for the 76 days or so with complete water change in between. Now that I think, it is called tank transfer method?

 

[Soren]

I'm not sure what this specific member means when saying observational QT but i do observational QTs and from my understanding, a typical observational QT usually is not carried out for longer, or even the same amount of time as a medicated QT. The purpose i do observational QTs is to get the fish eating well and make sure he's not displaying any obvious signs of disease which a healthy appetite and normal behavior are usually pretty good sign of...imo, a medicated QT is likely much more stressful for a healthy or sick fish and although it may cure a sick fish if you happen to get one, I'd expect the fish to be very stressed and likely have a long way to go before actually returning to a healthy fish at baseline...reason i do a brief observational QT

This is my basic ideology exactly. It has worked so far for me in not introducing diseases to my main tanks or having any losses that are linked directly to disease as of yet.

I guess I did not name it right. My idea was to keep them out of the main tank for the 76 days or so with complete water change in between. Now that I think, it is called tank transfer method?

No, tank transfer method is very different and much more difficult without experience as well as requiring more setup/equipment. Essentially, tank transfer method is where you move fish from one tank to another often enough to not allow the parasites to go through the different life stages and re-infect the fish.

If you quarantine your fish in a medicated QT and keep fish out of your main system for the 76 days, I would say you are doing prophylactic medicated quarantine and running fallow on the main system. Of course, exact terminology differs between individuals.

 

[Soren]

I'm not sure what this specific member means when saying observational QT but i do observational QTs and from my understanding, a typical observational QT usually is not carried out for longer, or even the same amount of time as a medicated QT. The purpose i do observational QTs is to get the fish eating well and make sure he's not displaying any obvious signs of disease which a healthy appetite and normal behavior are usually pretty good sign of...imo, a medicated QT is likely much more stressful for a healthy or sick fish and although it may cure a sick fish if you happen to get one, I'd expect the fish to be very stressed and likely have a long way to go before actually returning to a healthy fish at baseline...reason i do a brief observational QT

Also, I think what @Nemoreef meant by longer time is that, if you observe first and disease develops, the medication period starts after the first observational period and therefore extends the overall quarantine time.

I still think this is a worthwhile risk to take since avoiding medication unless truly necessary seems the healthiest route for the fish for the reasons you listed above.

 

[Nemoreef]

Also, I think what @Nemoreef meant by longer time is that, if you observe first and disease develops, the medication period starts after the first observational period and therefore extends the overall quarantine time.

I still think this is a worthwhile risk to take since avoiding medication unless truly necessary seems the healthiest route for the fish for the reasons you listed above.

Yes even with medication that is a possibility where if they develop anything, the quarantine resets. So I guess either way will take around the same time and I really don't have to add copper. Good thing I started this thread. The main reason I started was cos on an impulse I bought purple helix coraline algae to increase biodiversity and realized, if I add that, I can't add ammonia anymore to maintain the cycle. That's what prompted me to start this thread.

I also assumed that I have to observe them for 72 days in QT if I do not medicate. So how long do you observe before you move, assuming nothing develops on the fish?

 

[cdnco2004]

This is if you do not add copper correct? I will probably do this for inverts.

No even with Copper. Make up the water in advance. FOr a 10G QT. Get a Brute 44Gal can mixup 40 gallons of water add copper. Do 100% WC every 4 days. Take fish out of tank in bucket or what ever and clean the QT tank well then refill with the already medicated water. Repeat 3 times. QT Finished. I like to do H2O2 baths while I clean the QT.

 

[Nemoreef]

No even with Copper. Make up the water in advance. FOr a 10G QT. Get a Brute 44Gal can mixup 40 gallons of water add copper. Do 100% WC every 4 days. Take fish out of tank in bucket or what ever and clean the QT tank well then refill with the already medicated water. Repeat 3 times. QT Finished. I like to do H2O2 baths while I clean the QT.

How will you keep the ammonia 0 between water changes?

 

[cdnco2004]

You can't generate enough ammonia in 4 days to be of any concern. Ammonia is not a real threat in SW in any case. In SW we only care about ammonia during the initial cycling of a tank. Once cycled you almost will never have to worry about issues with ammonia again.

 

[cdnco2004]

No even with Copper. Make up the water in advance. FOr a 10G QT. Get a Brute 44Gal can mixup 40 gallons of water add copper. Do 100% WC every 4 days. Take fish out of tank in bucket or what ever and clean the QT tank well then refill with the already medicated water. Repeat 3 times. QT Finished. I like to do H2O2 baths while I clean the QT.

I forgot to add, Don't forget to add Air stone!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You can't generate enough ammonia in 4 days to be of any concern. Ammonia is not a real threat in SW in any case. In SW we only care about ammonia during the initial cycling of a tank. Once cycled you almost will never have to worry about issues with ammonia again.

What? Did you look at the list of fish he plans to add to a 10 gallon QT tank? Ammonia is certainly a real threat in SW, sorry have to disagree there. Ammonia is TOXIC not just to fish but many living organisms including humans. You have a good idea having the SW premixed with copper but I've gotta point out that ammonia is a real issue so he'll definitely need to monitor it with that fish load. And yeah, while ammonia isn't a threat to a well cycled reef generally, if something large dies it can certainly release enough ammonia to kill fish.

 

[cdnco2004]

You don't keep a bunch of fish together in the 10g tank. Depending on size if they are small a few only. If they are larger fish you keep them alone. If the fish is too big for a 10G then you go to a 20L like for older Tangs etc. It really all depends on the fish and even 6 smaller sized fish in one 10g is not going to produce enough ammonia to be anything near toxic levels in SW fish. This is the same method a number of PROFESSIONAL QT'ed fish sellers use.

 

[Nemoreef]

You don't keep a bunch of fish together in the 10g tank. Depending on size if they are small a few only. If they are larger fish you keep them alone. If the fish is too big for a 10G then you go to a 20L like for older Tangs etc. It really all depends on the fish and even 6 smaller sized fish in one 10g is not going to produce enough ammonia to be anything near toxic levels in SW fish. This is the same method a number of PROFESSIONAL QT'ed fish sellers use.

Yes it will all be Juvenile. I already checked the sizes at my LFS. All are under one inch. But I might just do the observational QT in the cycled tank with half of the fish. Probably 2 clowns, 1 Royal gramma and maybe yellow goby.

 

[Soren]

Yes even with medication that is a possibility where if they develop anything, the quarantine resets. So I guess either way will take around the same time and I really don't have to add copper. Good thing I started this thread. The main reason I started was cos on an impulse I bought purple helix coraline algae to increase biodiversity and realized, if I add that, I can't add ammonia anymore to maintain the cycle. That's what prompted me to start this thread.

I also assumed that I have to observe them for 72 days in QT if I do not medicate. So how long do you observe before you move, assuming nothing develops on the fish?

Correct about the medication period being based on when you observe the disease/parasite issue.
Personally, I'd recommend considering ocean-direct live rock for introduction of coralline algae as well as the significant added benefits toward system stability. It is well worth the investment in my opinion even if it is not how you get all of your rock. I ordered live sand along with an order for live rock from Gulf Live Rock, and the live sand was mostly crushed coral including some larger pieces. Most of the sand chunks were covered in coralline algae and are probably better sources than the helix bottled product. The primary thing needed for coralline algae, though, is proper water parameters and stability. I added purple helix bottles to my first 75-gallon tank and never got results, probably due to water parameters being off due to the low maintenance on my essentially-FishOnlyWithLiveRock system while I was new to the hobby.

I have never quarantined fish for observation anywhere near 72 days. I think most disease shows up within the first week or two after arrival. The duration of observation and quarantine in general depends on how much risk you are willing to take. It is best for new fish to be moved less frequently and not medicated unless necessary, so sooner is better for the fish to be moved to the final system, but if you already have significant livestock in your tank that would all be at risk with new introductions, more caution is preferable. It really is a personal decision how long you observe before taking the risk with introduction to your main system, but I would recommend around 3-4 weeks minimum if it is easy enough to keep your QT running. Due to a sizeable area in my basement dedicated as a fish room, I will probably have at least one available observational QT and one hospital tank for medication if necessary for the predictable future.

You don't keep a bunch of fish together in the 10g tank. Depending on size if they are small a few only. If they are larger fish you keep them alone. If the fish is too big for a 10G then you go to a 20L like for older Tangs etc. It really all depends on the fish and even 6 smaller sized fish in one 10g is not going to produce enough ammonia to be anything near toxic levels in SW fish. This is the same method a number of PROFESSIONAL QT'ed fish sellers use.

If the system has enough established nitrifying bacteria, a 10g QT can hold a fair number of fish without damage from ammonia, but I don't think it takes long in a new sterile system for the fish to generate enough ammonia to be harmful, even lethal. Some might take the risk, but I personally would not trust only water changes to eliminate ammonia. Adding a large sponge filter with established bacteria has worked for me to not have ammonia issues in my QT's. My experience is limited and only anecdotal right now, but I came to my conclusions for methodology from others with much more experience than me.

 

[cdnco2004]

Correct about the medication period being based on when you observe the disease/parasite issue.
Personally, I'd recommend considering ocean-direct live rock for introduction of coralline algae as well as the significant added benefits toward system stability. It is well worth the investment in my opinion even if it is not how you get all of your rock. I ordered live sand along with an order for live rock from Gulf Live Rock, and the live sand was mostly crushed coral including some larger pieces. Most of the sand chunks were covered in coralline algae and are probably better sources than the helix bottled product. The primary thing needed for coralline algae, though, is proper water parameters and stability. I added purple helix bottles to my first 75-gallon tank and never got results, probably due to water parameters being off due to the low maintenance on my essentially-FishOnlyWithLiveRock system while I was new to the hobby.

I have never quarantined fish for observation anywhere near 72 days. I think most disease shows up within the first week or two after arrival. The duration of observation and quarantine in general depends on how much risk you are willing to take. It is best for new fish to be moved less frequently and not medicated unless necessary, so sooner is better for the fish to be moved to the final system, but if you already have significant livestock in your tank that would all be at risk with new introductions, more caution is preferable. It really is a personal decision how long you observe before taking the risk with introduction to your main system, but I would recommend around 3-4 weeks minimum if it is easy enough to keep your QT running. Due to a sizeable area in my basement dedicated as a fish room, I will probably have at least one available observational QT and one hospital tank for medication if necessary for the predictable future.


If the system has enough established nitrifying bacteria, a 10g QT can hold a fair number of fish without damage from ammonia, but I don't think it takes long in a new sterile system for the fish to generate enough ammonia to be harmful, even lethal. Some might take the risk, but I personally would not trust only water changes to eliminate ammonia. Adding a large sponge filter with established bacteria has worked for me to not have ammonia issues in my QT's. My experience is limited and only anecdotal right now, but I came to my conclusions for methodology from others with much more experience than me.

There will be ZERO nitrifying bacteria. You do not add nitrifying bacteria to the tank and you do 100% WC every 4 days in this method. There is no substrate or live rock. Only fish hides, heater and air stone and tube. You completely clean all of that during each WC. If you're really concerned, you can put one of the Free Ammonia detector badges on and watch it, I did at first. But you would have to put A LOT of fish in that tank for the badge to change colors to the warning phase let alone the danger levels.

 

[Soren]

It takes longer than 4 days. You do 100% WC every 4 days in this method. If you're really concerned, you can but one of the Free Ammonia detector badges on and watch it, I did at first. But you would have to put A LOT of fish in that tank for the badge to change colors to the warning phase let alone the danger levels.

Yes, I understand this is one method. It just seems like it imparts extra stress on the fish that is not necessary if established bacteria is added instead of needing water changes so often. Of course, it depends on what the person doing the quarantining finds most doable. My recommendation of adding populated bio-media helps mitigate the risk if it goes too long between water changes.
I've used the badges before, but I have read that some find them unreliable.

Who knows, there are a lot of different methods to succeed in this hobby and also a lot of ways for beginners to mess up in devastating fashion.

 

[Nemoreef]

Adding an update

Visited LFS a week ago and they didn't have many of the fish I wanted. So I ended up getting 2 really small Clowns and a tiny yellow goby. These three are in quarantine tank. I did not dose anything. Just observing. They are doing really good. Will observe for another 2 to 3 weeks. And in the display tank, I added 4 Hermit crabs[2 Scarlet and 2 Electric blue], 6 snails[pair of Cerith, Nassarius and Turbo]

All are doing good but Turbo is not eating pellet or the seaweed. But they are really active at night.

Display tank is still reading 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite and really high Nitrate. This is the left over Nitrate from doing 2PPM to 0 ammonia in 24hours test a few times. I did two 60% water change too. So advice to anyone reading this, if you have a tank over 50G, it's not a good idea to add 2PPM ammonia. I think it should be lower, maybe about 1PPM.

My QTank is however reading upto 1PPM Nitrite. Fish is doing great as Nitrite is not harmful. But I am really curious to see why it's always 0 ammonia with lots of Nitrate but still reading Nitrite.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Adding an update

Visited LFS a week ago and they didn't have many of the fish I wanted. So I ended up getting 2 really small Clowns and a tiny yellow goby. These three are in quarantine tank. I did not dose anything. Just observing. They are doing really good. Will observe for another 2 to 3 weeks. And in the display tank, I added 4 Hermit crabs[2 Scarlet and 2 Electric blue], 6 snails[pair of Cerith, Nassarius and Turbo]

All are doing good but Turbo is not eating pellet or the seaweed. But they are really active at night.

Display tank is still reading 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite and really high Nitrate. This is the left over Nitrate from doing 2PPM to 0 ammonia in 24hours test a few times. I did two 60% water change too. So advice to anyone reading this, if you have a tank over 50G, it's not a good idea to add 2PPM ammonia. I think it should be lower, maybe about 1PPM.

My QTank is however reading upto 1PPM Nitrite. Fish is doing great as Nitrite is not harmful. But I am really curious to see why it's always 0 ammonia with lots of Nitrate but still reading Nitrite.

Your nitrate might be testing "really high" BECAUSE you still have nitrite.
(Although I'd like to know your actual nitrate reading... "High" to you might not really be that unusual.)

 

[Nemoreef]

Your nitrate might be testing "really high" BECAUSE you still have nitrite.
(Although I'd like to know your actual nitrate reading... "High" to you might not really be that unusual.)

I use red sea test kit. Available colors on the higher end are 10PPM, 20PPM and 50PPM and mine consistently get colors between 20PPM and 50PPM. Closer to 20PPM color.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I use red sea test kit. Available colors on the higher end are 10PPM, 20PPM and 50PPM and mine consistently get colors between 20PPM and 50PPM. Closer to 20PPM color.

Not really that high for a new system. Things will stabilize once the tank starts to mature (with fish, algae, etc adding to the bacterial biome...). It just takes some patience

 

[Nemoreef]

Not really that high for a new system. Things will stabilize once the tank starts to mature (with fish, algae, etc adding to the bacterial biome...). It just takes some patience

Yes I can wait, my plan was to add fish in a month or so but I was told not to be that patient. So I ordered some pre quarantined fish. I should have them in a week or two and then add the three fishes that are in quarantine in few weeks after that if they are fine. Just curious, Any insight on why Nitrites were 0 with adding ammonia vs now with fish?