How long for dry rock to function like live ocean rock

[jda]

I think that it usually takes about two years to get all of the phosphate out of the rock (there is more than just on the surface), the crud out of the pores and for it to behave like real live rock bacterially with the anoxic zones that turn nitrate into nitrogen gas.

I will say that I do not think that concrete or man-made rock will never get here since it is not porous and covered in purple epoxy that blocks the pores if it even has any.

The stuff can cover with coralline and other things more quickly, but this is not where the magic is even though it looks nice.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I think that it usually takes about two years to get all of the phosphate out of the rock (there is more than just on the surface), the crud out of the pores and for it to behave like real live rock bacterially with the anoxic zones that turn nitrate into nitrogen gas.

I will say that I do not think that concrete or man-made rock will never get here since it is not porous and covered in purple epoxy that blocks the pores if it even has any.

The stuff can cover with coralline and other things more quickly, but this is not where the magic is even though it looks nice.

So about two years for dry rock to get as good as it gets? Even if seeded with live rock? I see where you are coming from with the pores. I guess another good question for this thread is if the people who voted never think that there is any way to make dry rock equivalent or if not, why they think that. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter as it makes me think more critically about my current reef tank.

 

[ycnibrc]

Im not a biology i only use my observation to see the different.
The bacteria in the live rock and the nitrosomer nitrogen cycle are different group.
Back in the 90 even with real live rock from the ocean we still add fish or amonia to start the cycle. The live rock introduce multiple strain of other bacteria and microorganisms to the tank and after 6 months tank will be mature enough to sustain life.
Now we start with dry rock and we add fish or amonia products after 2-3 months then we start to add corals.
Please observe the different situation
In the 90 we add wild colonies not frag which team with bacteria it self
Now we add 1/2” frag so in the begging the frag can survive and then 2 to 3 months later they start to have problem and die. The present tank is like a fowlr , minimalist dry rock , bare bottom, high flow which all equal to less surface area for bacteria to populate. If your tank dont have bacteria to take care off the biology side of the equation no matters how perfect your parameters is your tank still cant keep sps.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Im not a biology i only use my observation to see the different.
The bacteria in the live rock and the nitrosomer nitrogen cycle are different group.
Back in the 90 even with real live rock from the ocean we still add fish or amonia to start the cycle. The live rock introduce multiple strain of other bacteria and microorganisms to the tank and after 6 months tank will be mature enough to sustain life.
Now we start with dry rock and we add fish or amonia products after 2-3 months then we start to add corals.
Please observe the different situation
In the 90 we add wild colonies not frag which team with bacteria it self
Now we add 1/2” frag so in the begging the frag can survive and then 2 to 3 months later they start to have problem and die. The present tank is like a fowlr , minimalist dry rock , bare bottom, high flow which all equal to less surface area for bacteria to populate. If your tank dont have bacteria to take care off the biology side of the equation no matters how perfect your parameters is your tank still cant keep sps.

I agree that there has definitely been a change in approach to reefing over the years. I myself have only been in the hobby for about 7 years so I haven’t experienced this change myself but have seen how tanks have changed from threads posted in the early 2000s vs now. I think the biological aspect to reef tanks is often overlooked which is partially why I was curious about what the SPS community thinks when it comes to maturing dry rock into what is functionally equivalent to ocean rock. So far it seems like majority of people think a year or two before the rock has matured. I hope that this thread can be a useful resource to those people who have started with dry rock and are wondering if their rock has matured long enough and if they have done everything recommended when adding diversity to their tank.

 

[2Sunny]

Bacteria in a bottle is the least of concern. You can get most of these bacteria from the digestive systems of fish early in a tank life, so all that the bottle does is speed you up by a week or two.

It is all kinds of pods, worms, sponges, cryptic sponges, starfish, etc. that are what is missing. Hard to get any of this without real live rock or a call to Indo Pacific Sea Farms.

...so I am going with never since most people do not even know that there is more to this than bacteria.

I agree with JD. It's really not just about bacteria, but rather all the other "stuff". My rocks are covered in pink, white and brown sponge, feather dusters, and tiny brittle stars. I especially think the massive sponge growth in my tank is an important point of the overall biology.


There is a well known reefer, ReefBum, and here's how fast he grew his famous TOTM with LR:

and then here's his story trying dry rock in 2015. I realize correlation does not equal causation, but it's just one more anecdote: Time to Reboot my Tank , of course, I will also admit that with LR you can get the "bad" hitchhikers as well so there is that to consider.

 

[EMeyer]

The bacteria in the live rock and the nitrosomer nitrogen cycle are different group.

Great point that deserves emphasis.

Bacteria in a bottle are generally either (a) nitrifying bacteria or (b) heterotrophic bacteria that form spores. These bottles contain generally 1-3 different types of bacteria. Most of these bacteria are not common components of the aquarium microbiome.

Live rock on the other hand contains hundreds of different kinds of Bacteria and Archaea with a wide range of ecological activities. And these microbes actually survive long term in the aquarium.

To seed a tank with a bottle of bacteria, and expect this to promote a natural microbiome, makes exactly as much sense as planting a package of marigold seeds in your garden and expecting the Amazon rain forest to grow. (And I should add -- most of the manufacturers don't claim their products will produce a diverse microbiome, they specifically recommend them for certain applications. It appears that a lot of people in the hobby have started using them 'off label' in an effort to promote diversity, and it is this misguided practice that I am ranting about)

 

[Aqua Man]

@Brandon McHenry So glad you started this thread!!
I’m voting at least a year or two.

Dry rock, how long does even take to get saturated?! My thoughts are that it’s at least a few days before the very center of the Rock is even wet Let alone colonized with bacteria

 

[Brandon McHenry]

I agree with JD. It's really not just about bacteria, but rather all the other "stuff". My rocks are covered in pink, white and brown sponge, feather dusters, and tiny brittle stars. I especially think the massive sponge growth in my tank is an important point of the overall biology.


There is a well known reefer, ReefBum, and here's how fast he grew his famous TOTM with LR:

and then here's his story trying dry rock in 2015. I realize correlation does not equal causation, but it's just one more anecdote: Time to Reboot my Tank , of course, I will also admit that with LR you can get the "bad" hitchhikers as well so there is that to consider.

Excellent point! I agree there is so much more to the rock in our tank than the ability to cycle nitrogen. All of the other life is equally as important! So do you think there is a reliable way to transform dry rock into something that act similarly to live rock from the ocean? Or do you think that dry rock will never reach that level?

I have seen pictures of that tank it is just incredible! And I have read his more recent issues regarding dry rock and dinos so I definitely believe there is something to learn from that.

Great point that deserves emphasis.

Bacteria in a bottle are generally either (a) nitrifying bacteria or (b) heterotrophic bacteria that form spores. These bottles contain generally 1-3 different types of bacteria. Most of these bacteria are not common components of the aquarium microbiome.

Live rock on the other hand contains hundreds of different kinds of Bacteria and Archaea with a wide range of ecological activities. And these microbes actually survive long term in the aquarium.

To seed a tank with a bottle of bacteria, and expect this to promote a natural microbiome, makes exactly as much sense as planting a package of marigold seeds in your garden and expecting the Amazon rain forest to grow. (And I should add -- most of the manufacturers don't claim their products will produce a diverse microbiome, they specifically recommend them for certain applications. It appears that a lot of people in the hobby have started using them 'off label' in an effort to promote diversity, and it is this misguided practice that I am ranting about)

I agree completely! I have a background in microbiology so I wholeheartedly believe in the fact that the diverse microbiome of live rock plays a huge role in successful SPS tanks and it is most likely very difficult or impossible to get that much diversity from a bottle. With that said, do you feel it’s possible to seed a tank of dry rock with ocean rock and eventually come out with a reef that has a bunch of live rock that all functions the same, regardless of origin? Or will the live rock always be better?

@Brandon McHenry So glad you started this thread!!
I’m voting at least a year or two.

Dry rock, how long does even take to get saturated?! My thoughts are that it’s at least a few days before the very center of the Rock is even wet Let alone colonized with bacteria

Me too! I am loving this topic! And I’m not even sure about the saturation I’m sure it has to do with density and pore size. I’ve heard some dry rock is very dense and has a hard time supporting the anoxic zones that makes live rock so special.

 

[User1]

So about two years for dry rock to get as good as it gets? Even if seeded with live rock? I see where you are coming from with the pores. I guess another good question for this thread is if the people who voted never think that there is any way to make dry rock equivalent or if not, why they think that. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter as it makes me think more critically about my current reef tank.

A way to test this is by taking a rock in the tank. Lift and turn it 90 degrees. If the rock looks the same as the front before you turned it in place, then it is mature. On the other hand you lift and turn and the rock looks new (dark side of the moon, no Sun) then it isn't. That is basically the reason why some of us say 2 years if not more.

Using Pukani as an example it is very porous. Lots of nooks and crannies that will take a while to fill in with life. All forms of it being algae, worms, pods, and even coral growth. The initial cycle can be anywhere from a week, a month, or even two months but that just means a base biological filter is in place to process 4 ppm ammonia to 0 in under 24 hours. Fish ready.

Coral ready is a different beast all together. Having used Pukani I personally would never, ever, recommend dry rock use again ESPECIALLY IN UPGRADES or merging of tanks. I am considering changing tanks to a different design and possibly larger and I've already factored in TBS rock prices. There is absolutely no way I'm going back to dry no matter the cost savings.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

A way to test this is by taking a rock in the tank. Lift and turn it 90 degrees. If the rock looks the same as the front before you turned it in place, then it is mature. On the other hand you lift and turn and the rock looks new (dark side of the moon, no Sun) then it isn't. That is basically the reason why some of us say 2 years if not more.

Using Pukani as an example it is very porous. Lots of nooks and crannies that will take a while to fill in with life. All forms of it being algae, worms, pods, and even coral growth. The initial cycle can be anywhere from a week, a month, or even two months but that just means a base biological filter is in place to process 4 ppm ammonia to 0 in under 24 hours. Fish ready.

Coral ready is a different beast all together. Having used Pukani I personally would never, ever, recommend dry rock use again ESPECIALLY IN UPGRADES or merging of tanks. I am considering changing tanks to a different design and possibly larger and I've already factored in TBS rock prices. There is absolutely no way I'm going back to dry no matter the cost savings.

I like the differentiation here, fish ready vs coral (more specifically SPS ready). I agree that there is a huge difference between a rock being able to uptake ammonia and transform it into nitrate and a rock being able to support all of the complex biological processes that are required to keep healthy SPS coral.

I also like the 90 degrees test, I think that is a good way to look at this. I would venture to say that even after a year or two most dry rock tanks would still have that “new dry rock look” whether it be whiteish colored or the purple epoxy color still showing through. So I guess for everyone who does currently have a tank started with dry rock, what can the community recommend to supercharge the biodiversity in these tanks and get the rock to a point where it has all of the sponges, tunicates, worms etc. and passes the 90 degrees test?

 

[User1]

I like the differentiation here, fish ready vs coral (more specifically SPS ready). I agree that there is a huge difference between a rock being able to uptake ammonia and transform it into nitrate and a rock being able to support all of the complex biological processes that are required to keep healthy SPS coral.

I also like the 90 degrees test, I think that is a good way to look at this. I would venture to say that even after a year or two most dry rock tanks would still have that “new dry rock look” whether it be whiteish colored or the purple epoxy color still showing through. So I guess for everyone who does currently have a tank started with dry rock, what can the community recommend to supercharge the biodiversity in these tanks and get the rock to a point where it has all of the sponges, tunicates, worms etc. and passes the 90 degrees test?

Thanks - this is what works for me anyway. I also use cryptic zones like my overflow box or the rock(s) that are against a wall. I know that is frowned upon, rocks on glass, but I like the lower flow cryptic areas and my Sea Swirls and Gyre can get water back there when needed.

 

[Aqua Man]

So I guess for everyone who does currently have a tank started with dry rock, what can the community recommend to supercharge the biodiversity in these tanks and get the rock to a point where it has all of the sponges, tunicates, worms etc. and passes the 90 degrees test?

Time. Garfs grunge I hear and Indo sea farms can help.

I took some of my extra dry rock to a friend who has an older reef. He put it in his sump for me. Probably won’t ask for it back for at least 6 months

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Thanks - this is what works for me anyway. I also use cryptic zones like my overflow box or the rock(s) that are against a wall. I know that is frowned upon, rocks on glass, but I like the lower flow cryptic areas and my Sea Swirls and Gyre can get water back there when needed.

Well I think that cryptic zones play a huge role in many reefs. There are plenty of bacteria and larger animals that are not at home in the high light/flow areas of most of our reef tanks and cryptic zones give them a place to populate. I think many people are afraid of any detritus trap that cryptic zones can get overlooked.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Time. Garfs grunge I hear and Indo sea farms can help.

I took some of my extra dry rock to a friend who has an older reef. He put it in his sump for me. Probably won’t ask for it back for at least 6 months

Great suggestions! Seeding the dry rock with more than bottled bacteria does seem to be an overlooked part of dry rock maturation. However I like the idea of maturing the rock in an established reef the most

 

[Brandon McHenry]

So it seems to me that there is a clear distinction in the votes. It seems like there are the people who think that their dry rock matures and becomes biologically similar to live rock by the 2 years mark and then there are people who think that dry rock will never get there. I would love to hear everybody’s reasons for why they voted the way that they did.

If you think that dry rock can eventually become the same as live ocean rock, with all of the bacteria, sponges, worms, pods, etc, what do you do to get there? How do you seed it?

If you think that dry rock will never accomplish what live ocean rock will, why not? What is it about the rock that won’t allow it to eventually mature into functionally similar rock?

I think this is a great discussion so far and I think we are compiling lots of valuable information!

 

[Rick5]

If so, what steps do you think are necessary to make dry rock act like live rock?

You could add a piece of live rock to the dry rock for the purpose of seeding the dry rock. You could also get some Garf Grunge or a pack from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms. You could do all three. The dry rock's composition (pores and material) will likely still be different than live rock, though. Some folks don't do any of this and have successful tanks with dry rock (although I am admittedly not among them).

My solution was to replace my tank's dry rock with KP Aquatics rock.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

You could add a piece of live rock to the dry rock for the purpose of seeding the dry rock. You could also get some Garf Grunge or a pack from Indo-Pacific Sea Farms. You could do all three. The dry rock's composition (pores and material) will likely still be different than live rock, though. Some folks don't do any of this and have successful tanks with dry rock (although I am admittedly not among them).

My solution was to replace my tank's dry rock with KP Aquatics rock.

Great suggestions! These all seem like great ways to seed dry rock with the organisms necessary for a biologically active reef tank. If you don’t mind me asking:

What kind of dry rock did you start with?
How old was it when you switched?
What made you switch?
How have things done after the switch?

It would be great to have some testimonials on here as well about people’s experiences with dry vs live rock. Thanks for the contribution!

 

[Salemsoul]

There is no answer within the context of the OP question. "Function like the ocean" impossible to know without testing & classifying the bacterium actually in your system. Some would argue never and I don't know of any studies I can link comparing consumption/efficiency of live rock from a home aquarium vs ocean rock.

As for maturity: the hobbyist level idea that bio load influences mature bacteria colony doesn't hold the same weight scientifically. When you talk about the different families of bacteria in each species, Surface area, free floating AOA, the life cycle or the length of the lag phase (how long the actual bacteria is in rest before reproduction). One tank could be two years before it really matured others could be longer or shorter depending on what is introduced into the tank. As a community we provide a finite time because we need to have a safe number

 

[Rick5]

If you don’t mind me asking:

What kind of dry rock did you start with?
How old was it when you switched?
What made you switch?
How have things done after the switch?

It would be great to have some testimonials on here as well about people’s experiences with dry vs live rock. Thanks for the contribution!

I don't mind at all. I've been watching and waiting with the intent of reporting back any changes I notice.

Here's some background information, which I posted on April 17, 2020 in another thread:

This is related to several of the ideas referenced in this thread, so I thought I’d contribute and provide an update as things progress or regress (which remains to be seen).

I started my tank (approximately 60 gallons in water volume) with dry rock. I inoculated the dry rock with an assortment of bottled bacteria and, after nearly a year or more, developed a respectable SPS collection ranging from old school classics to many newer pieces. The tank was eventually overrun with dinoflagellates, which I eventually conquered, after it eradicated my entire SPS collection (which I previously posted about on this forum). Fast forward many months later with aged dry rock (2 years roughly) and one of the things I previously did as part of my dinoflagellates eradication approach and thereafter was increase nutrients which, of course, resulted in the dry rock absorbing/binding phosphate and then releasing the phosphate, thereby continuing to "pollute" the tank's water. In the process of dosing lathum chloride in order to release the phosphate the dry rock absorbed, I ended up with a second wave of dinoflagellates or some kind of invasive algae (roughly 8 months after I eradicated the initial wave of dinoflagellates). I don’t have a microscope so I cannot provide actual identification of the pest, but it behaves like dinoflagellates and has once again decimated a large number of SPS.

As a last-ditch effort, I ordered 35 lbs. of uncured live rock from KP Aquatics (which I believe is dry rock that was left to sit in the ocean) and is the closest I am able to get to real live rock. I placed the new rock in a large trash can to address the die off. Ordinarily, I would have let the rock cure/die off for months, but given the dire state of the SPS in my tank, I pulled the dry rock out of my tank and replaced it with the live rock (after only a week of curing) and I leveraged a bit of Prime (water conditioner) to temporarily neutralize any ammonia, given that the dinoflagellates were quickly smothering my SPS. The SPS stopped dying and a little less than a month has elapsed since I switched out the dry rock. At this point, the back wall and (new) rock are covered in the dinoflagellates but, again, the tissue necrosis has seemingly stopped, which is reassuring.

I have also ordered a 1 gallon container of Fritz (Fritzyme 9) in the hopes that it may once again help eradicate the dinoflagellates remnants (and have continued to run a 10w pond UV). In the interim, I am also feeding generously (while trying to avoid overfeeding and having the rock bind a ton of phosphate again). The tank’s nutrients are too low, as far as I’m concerned, in this dry rock riddled world, with a recent reading of 2.5 nitrate and .009 phosphate. I don’t run a skimmer anymore and I use sea lettuce and some chaeto for nutrient export. I am not performing water changes for the time-being. Interestingly, the pest (unlike my earlier/first wave of dinoflagellates), is being picked at by some fish and some of my clean up crew. For that reason, I ordered a couple of urchins, astrea snails, scarlet hermit crabs and cerith snails.

Granted, I am not performing double blind studies or operating a scientific study of any kind, growing SPS used to be easy and the only thing I am doing differently these days is/has been the use of dry rock. It will be interesting to see what happens here with the new rock.

Fast forward to today, the second wave of dinoflagellates is gone. The remnant frags are hanging on, with some progressing a little, but it's too soon to tell because the frags are probably dormant and still likely need time to recuperate (as they've been through quite a bit). However, the parameters are stable, but could benefit from a boost in nutrients. I'm planning on placing an order for frags (after I get the nutrients a little higher) and I'll report back.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

There is no answer within the context of the OP question. "Function like the ocean" impossible to know without testing & classifying the bacterium actually in your system. Some would argue never and I don't know of any studies I can link comparing consumption/efficiency of live rock from a home aquarium vs ocean rock.

As for maturity: the hobbyist level idea that bio load influences mature bacteria colony doesn't hold the same weight scientifically. When you talk about the different families of bacteria in each species, Surface area, free floating AOA, the life cycle or the length of the lag phase (how long the actual bacteria is in rest before reproduction). One tank could be two years before it really matured others could be longer or shorter depending on what is introduced into the tank. As a community we provide a finite time because we need to have a safe number

Thanks for your insight! I agree that we could never compare true function of aquarium rock to that in the ocean. The question was more geared to whether or not dry rock can be seeded with enough life that one day it will function similarly to rock that was gotten from say KP Aquatics or Tampa Bay Saltwater (Aquacultured rock from the ocean) and if so how long does it take? And what needs to happen to get the dry rock to that level? I think this thread has already given some great insight on how the reefing (and specifically SPS) community views the rock in our tanks and what constitutes biodiversity and maturity as well as the benefits that each type provides.

I don't mind at all. I've been watching and waiting with the intent of reporting back any changes I notice.

Here's some background information, which I posted on April 17, 2020 in another thread:



Fast forward to today, the second wave of dinoflagellates is gone. The remnant frags are hanging on, with some progressing a little, but it's too soon to tell because the frags are probably dormant and still likely need time to recuperate (as they've been through quite a bit). However, the parameters are stable, but could benefit from a boost in nutrients. I'm planning on placing an order for frags (after I get the nutrients a little higher) and I'll report back.

I actually remember reading this exact post! Too funny! It’s great to hear that the change in rock has helped clear your dinos and hopefully saved your remaining frags. I would be curious to see how things progress in the future and what improvements might be able to be tied to the new live rock.