How much water turn over through sump?

TherealplexiG · Sep 13, 2016

The most important aspect is contact time, while many recommend x to z xzibit and overlook the concept of every molecule of water passing on through the filtration within a certain span of time. What this allows is to remove all the nutrients. I have had great success with 4 x.

JayC · Sep 13, 2016

A flowrate through a filtration system depends on the end result water parameters. The answer to your specific flowrate will be revealed by test kits and bioload performance. 'Dialing in' the efficiency of your filtration system takes weeks. It's also constantly changing because your bioload is constantly changing. I personally have slowed my flowrate down to almost twice an hour. Yet, my KZ xl turns my sump quantity about 10 times that, before returning it to the display. It makes no sense to RUSH your water through the system .... IF IT'S NOT BEING CLEANED. Stripping water is a falsity. With the ability to strip water, comes the technique of applying time into the equation.

fernalfer · Sep 13, 2016

Maybe a dumb question but how exactly do you measure how many times your water is turning over exactly?

Brew12 · Sep 13, 2016

fernalfer said:
Maybe a dumb question but how exactly do you measure how many times your water is turning over exactly?

Not many people measure it, but you can calculate it. You have to look at your pump specs, height your pump has to push the water, pipe size, and pipe fittings.

JayC · Sep 13, 2016

Fernalfer.... flowrate is always an 'estimate'. It's equated by the pump's flowrate 'given' and the specific 'head pressure' that you personally applied.

RamsReef · Sep 13, 2016

Brew12 said:
I don't think it is a matter of which one is "better". They are actually much more similar than you would think. The vast majority of AC return pumps are AC synchronous motors. The speed of a synchronous motor uses the following equation NP=120F where N is the speed, P is the number of motor poles it uses and F is your system frequency. So, a typical 4 pole motor will spin at 1800 RPM in the US or 1500 RPM in Europe (60hz vs 50hz).

The vast majority of DC pumps are actually AC synchronous motors. No, that is not a typo. The way the vast majority of them work is by using a rectifier/inverter combination. They take the 120V AC and rectify it into DC. They then take the DC and convert it to a variable frequency (and typically much lower voltage) AC. As this frequency changes the pump speed increases or decreases to match the frequency.

If you are going to run an AC pump at full capacity it will be more efficient than the equivalent DC pump because it doesn't have the rectifier/inverter losses. If you are going to throttle flow than the DC pump will be more efficient. The DC pump is also typically safer since you have a lower voltage source driving the pump if you use the in sump variety.

Does that help?

What no slip? Everyone's walking around with self excited synch motors in their tanks now?

As for the DC Pumps, I'm pretty sure they use DC brushless motors.

As Brew said, if you are running at 100% your pump capacity AC will be more economical as you do not have "Drive" loss (The DC Power / Controller system), however you will not have cool features if that's what you want.

DC will give you way more controllability of the flow, soft starts, feedback, whatever you want, and operate cheaper compared to an AC as long as you are below full load.

Reliability wise, the AC will probably be more reliable as the only thing to really go wrong on an AC motor is the bearings. On the DC side, the electronics will introduce a failure point if you are counting those.

RamsReef · Sep 13, 2016

fernalfer said:
Maybe a dumb question but how exactly do you measure how many times your water is turning over exactly?

Put a known container size on the drain of your system into the sump.

Time how long it takes to fill said container.

3600 Seconds Per Hour

(Container size * 3600 ) / seconds it took to fill container

Value up here ^ / total tank volume = turn over rate

Brew12 · Sep 13, 2016

Ramasule said:
What no slip? Everyone's walking around with self excited synch motors in their tanks now?
As for the DC Pumps, I'm pretty sure they use DC brushless motors.

We can talk slip, and I'm sure a few of the larger return pumps are induction motors but those equations get much more complicated!

The DC pumps do use DC brushless motors. A DC brushless motor is really just a form of AC synchronous reluctance motor. Instead of an AC sine wave you apply a stepped DC voltage to the poles. There is very little difference in the construction between the two.

RamsReef · Sep 13, 2016

Hey you brought "synchronous" motor into the conversation, not me!

edosan · Sep 13, 2016

Here is all the main info you need (and some of the best reads you can find IMO): http://www.reefedition.com/291/

Return Pump – 10-50 times Total Turnover Rate including powerheads. The ratio of return flow rate and the flow rate of your powerheads can vary. Ideally you would want your return rate to be equal to the protein skimmer, or faster. The return pump is usually 10x turnover, leaving 10-40X turnover rate for the power heads to make up for.

I have seen lots of 1x to 5x with problems, but it all depends on the tank you have (species)

fernalfer · Sep 13, 2016

Ok so i have a 120 gallon tank with 36 gallon sump. It is 4 1/2 feet up to pump out of Dual overflows. I have the syncra silent 5.0 which pumps 1,321 gallon on max setting which it is. So you are saying grab a jug and in my case it will have to be big enough to receive water from both drains coming back into the sump to use the formula above to calculate the flow?

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 13, 2016

fernalfer said:
Maybe a dumb question but how exactly do you measure how many times your water is turning over exactly?

K.I.S.S estimate
total vol x desired turnover
120+36=156 156x5=780 780 gpg pump for 5x turnover - head loss.

you prob at 9x or 10x maybe more.

RamsReef · Sep 13, 2016

fernalfer said:
Ok so i have a 120 gallon tank with 36 gallon sump. It is 4 1/2 feet up to pump out of Dual overflows. I have the syncra silent 5.0 which pumps 1,321 gallon on max setting which it is. So you are saying grab a jug and in my case it will have to be big enough to receive water from both drains coming back into the sump to use the formula above to calculate the flow?

1.5 M -> 4000 L/H -> 1056.688 G/H -> / 156 -> 6.8 Turnover.

http://sicceus.com/aquarium.html

GainesvilleReef · Sep 13, 2016

I always believed the 10-50X numbers came from closed loop systems in the old days before power heads. I have always run my tanks at around 4-6 times and never had an issue.

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 14, 2016

GainesvilleReef said:
I always believed the 10-50X numbers came from closed loop systems in the old days before power heads. I have always run my tanks at around 4-6 times and never had an issue.

That makes total sense.
I actually run about ten. Mine is kinda closed loop. I did have to make some sump considerations to allow more settling for the skimmer. In a new we style set up it probably means Too fast and you wind up w gunk back up in the DT.

john.m.cole3 · Sep 14, 2016

Brew12 said:
I don't think it is a matter of which one is "better". They are actually much more similar than you would think. The vast majority of AC return pumps are AC synchronous motors. The speed of a synchronous motor uses the following equation NP=120F where N is the speed, P is the number of motor poles it uses and F is your system frequency. So, a typical 4 pole motor will spin at 1800 RPM in the US or 1500 RPM in Europe (60hz vs 50hz).

The vast majority of DC pumps are actually AC synchronous motors. No, that is not a typo. The way the vast majority of them work is by using a rectifier/inverter combination. They take the 120V AC and rectify it into DC. They then take the DC and convert it to a variable frequency (and typically much lower voltage) AC. As this frequency changes the pump speed increases or decreases to match the frequency.

If you are going to run an AC pump at full capacity it will be more efficient than the equivalent DC pump because it doesn't have the rectifier/inverter losses. If you are going to throttle flow than the DC pump will be more efficient. The DC pump is also typically safer since you have a lower voltage source driving the pump if you use the in sump variety.

Does that help?

Now that's what I call information. Thanks for the response.

Sir Chris · Sep 14, 2016

3x ur water volume an hour. So 50g 150 gal per hour that's the bottom line the more water per hour doesn't mean cleaner water. Everything needs 2 be matched and tuned. I'm using a eshopps return pump that has 4 modes it's dc so I don't have 2 choke it off with a ball valve and hurt its seals as i wanna add a 55g breader so once added I can turn it up. It's at 1 right now