How should I go about treating him?

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Sorry about the late response. I looked back at some pictures of him from Saturday and noticed he did not have damaged pectoral fins, but he did have bite looking marks on his tail / back fin. And I was going to say that he has gotten a little worse. The white had spread a bit more and his fins were looking like he was being attacked by fish. Would a freshwater dip help him out if it is flukes? Do you need any pictures to determine if it is flukes. He is still eating flakes and very small pellets though. Also his bottom fins twitch sometimes if that is something to note on. Lastly how would I remove the copper if it is flukes?

A FW dip will help buy some time if it is flukes, but won't cure it, However, be aware that each time you handle this fish you will cause more stress/damage.

The twitching fin is a symptom of flukes.

Here is the issue: if you pull the copper and treat with praziquantel for flukes, you then leave the fish vulnerable to protozoan disease. However, dosing prazi and copper together is extra stressful, and this species doesn't handle stress well. It is a judgement call on your part I'm afraid......

Jay

 

[SeaDøøby]

If I do take out the copper how will I do that? Carbon bags? Water changes?

 

[Sharkbait19]

If I do take out the copper how will I do that? Carbon bags? Water changes?

Both

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

If I do take out the copper how will I do that? Carbon bags? Water changes?

Carbon is actually not a good way to remove amine-based copper. Water changes are the best way. You jest need to get the copper down to less than half a dose, you only have to remove every last trace of it if the tank will be housing invertebrates.

Polyfilter and Cuprisorb can be used in conjunction with water changes.


Jay

 

[SeaDøøby]

Okay very nervous... I’m going to do a freshwater dip on the angel.
For the dip I was going to fill my black bucket with ro/di, let it aerate for half an hour, then before putting the fish in I will put an ammonia remover / stress reliever. After the dip let him settle back in the tank and keep and eye on him for 30mins-hour then turn off the light and let him settle. Then in the morning I will do a water change. The copper should be around 0 by then by the cuprisorb and the water change. Then I will start the prazipro treatment. I will also give him metroplex and kanaplex in his food combined with focus. Sorry about the long write up. Good plan?

 

[bruno3047]

Slowly raising copper is always a mistake. It is one of those ideas that got over-extrapolated. Back in the day of using copper/citric acid, we would take 48 hours to get to a full dose. That then got carried over (for no real reason) to amine-based coppers. Then, the 48 hours got lengthened to 5 or more days. What happens is often this: a person takes 5 days to slowly raise the copper. On day four the fish starts breathing fast and dies. They then attribute it to copper toxicity. Actually, the fish died from an uncontrolled protozoan infection....

Accurately measuring copper is the big issue. I tell folks to add the copper in two to three doses, over 24 to 48 hours, with testing in between, not because it needs to be added slowly, but just so they don't overshoot the dose, and they sort of edge up to it.

In regards to water changes - if you aren't having ammonia issues, you shouldn't have to do water changes.

Remember never to add a reducing agent (formalin, ammonia remover, etc.) to a tank with Cupramine in it.

Jay

Every copper medication I’ve ever used has explicit instructions on the bottle. How about we just follow the instructions on the bottle to the letter as far as how quickly to get up to therapeutic levels and how long to maintain those levels. It’s not rocket science people.

 

[SeaDøøby]

I would say the dip went a lot better than I thought! He kept lying on his side at first, but I got him to move around he started swimming on his own in there. I saw a lot of I think scales fall off his side and some came out of where those two cuts were. The only thing I saw that was concerning was a worm like thing and the scales.

Almost forgot to mention his sides look a little bit more cleared up.

 

[bruno3047]

Good job.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Every copper medication I’ve ever used has explicit instructions on the bottle. How about we just follow the instructions on the bottle to the letter as far as how quickly to get up to therapeutic levels and how long to maintain those levels. It’s not rocket science people.

Not sure why this was directed to me, but I'll say it again - taking too long to ramp up copper is always a mistake. If there are active infections, copper can take over 72 hours to effect a cure, if you take five days to get to a full dose, you risk losing the fish. Coppersafe's instructions give it as a single, immediate dose and I've done that routinely when I know the true volume of the tank I'm dosing. Cupramine says get to a full dose in 48 hours....that is a bit slow, but usually works. Copper Power just says "several days". That needs to be read as "48 hours".

The biggest issue with copper treatments is inaccurate measurements - I use a spectrophotometer, but the Hanna Checkers are the next best thing.

True copper toxicity is exceedingly rare with these amine based copper products.


Jay

 

[bruno3047]

Not sure why this was directed to me, but I'll say it again - taking too long to ramp up copper is always a mistake. If there are active infections, copper can take over 72 hours to effect a cure, if you take five days to get to a full dose, you risk losing the fish. Coppersafe's instructions give it as a single, immediate dose and I've done that routinely when I know the true volume of the tank I'm dosing. Cupramine says get to a full dose in 48 hours....that is a bit slow, but usually works. Copper Power just says "several days". That needs to be read as "48 hours".

The biggest issue with copper treatments is inaccurate measurements - I use a spectrophotometer, but the Hanna Checkers are the next best thing.

True copper toxicity is exceedingly rare with these amine based copper products.


Jay

It wasn’t directed at you. I was just saying. Sorry.

 

[SeaDøøby]

Very bad news. This morning I noticed he was breathing faster than usual and this was right after a water change. I left for the morning and when I returned he is on the floor breathing really fast. I doubt there is anything I can do. I’m not sure what I did wrong.

I’m able to get him moving but I’m worried it will really tire him out. Maybe a freshwater dip. Is it pretty much too late for him

 

[SeaDøøby]

Also I added prazipro yesterday so I’m adding carbon to get that out

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Also I added prazipro yesterday so I’m adding carbon to get that out

Sorry to see.

Carbon may not remove praziquantel, but that wouldn't have done this to the fish anyways...

Jay

 

[bruno3047]

Very bad news. This morning I noticed he was breathing faster than usual and this was right after a water change. I left for the morning and when I returned he is on the floor breathing really fast. I doubt there is anything I can do. I’m not sure what I did wrong.

I’m able to get him moving but I’m worried it will really tire him out. Maybe a freshwater dip. Is it pretty much too late for him

Don’t blame yourself. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that there are many many Marine fish diseases in this world that we don’t even know about. It’s not like a lot of money has been spent researching this. Any money that has been spent has been spent with a view towards fish that we consume, not that we keep as pets. Sorry for your loss.