How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

[brandon429]

Then I’m confident you can begin after a water change or after polyfiltration to reset all ammonia, I’ll bet the water smells normal too, we change water just to be safe and mainly to bring down algae potential from nitrate. You can add a test snail right now as is, I bet it lives, and if the water was true 2 ppm he wouldn’t make overnite.

I wouldn’t bother testing any other params, dr Tim’s is ten day ready bac (or faster) if tested nitrite is likely to show positive but we don’t really mind, it’s neutral.

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Hello everyone, wondering if you can lend some guidance to my seemingly stuck tank. Tank was started with live sand and 10lbs of live rock from LFS and a tiny piece of shrimp. After a few days I decided to switch from a 20L to a 40B and add 20lbs of dry rock and Bio Spora to aid bacteria growth and pulled shrimp at 2.0ppm ammonia. I poured everything into new tank but switched to a large grain live sand on recommendation of LFS (30LBS I believe). The tank is currently on day 10 and reads as follows. Data begins day after swap.

2/5/21	Ammonia Between .25 and .5	no test	Nitrite between 2.0 and 5.0
2/6/21	Ammonia Between .25 and .5	no test	Nitrite between 2.0 and 5.0
2/7/21	Ammonia Between .25 and .5	Nitrate 20ppm	Nitrite between 2.0 and 5.0
2/8/21	Ammonia Between .25 and .5	no test	Nitrite between 2.0 and 5.0

I apologize for the lack of data prior to 2/5, I somehow forgot how important data is to reefing.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for posting! Again we see clear water, smells just fine I’ll bet, biospira gets tanks ready fast, plus live rock brought in bacteria as a compound source plus ten days wait time, I bet this one is cycled too and the ammonia down motion was key in this context

you were able to see ammonia once be much darker than it is above, dark green, then the ammonia moved back down to this color above (a downward motion) after removing shrimp is that correct?

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Yes the ammonia once read 2.0, removed after LFS recommendation. It was only in there for roughly 3 days. Should I add another ammonia source? I was unsure what exactly was going as nitrites seemed to either level off or were beyond scope of the api tests and ammonia seemed to level off. To be honest, the API tests are so incredibly hard to read.

 

[brandon429]

This tank is cycled and can begin, no problem. Posts on page one show why the ammonia held the way it has, but the movement down is all that counts considering you’ve added bottle bac that works in 48 hours to be cycled. The nitrite has no bearing, only the ammonia motion, 100% ready here.

if in doubt, add a small set of snails or other sensitive animals and let us know how they do, theyll be fine. Acclimate them over carefully from the lfs and they’ll be fine.

*the tendency from the pet store and all other cycling materials will be to wait indefinite weeks until all three parameters line up, and thats harmless to do it wanted.

what we do here is talk about how a timely start, matching the dates on the bottled bac, is equally safe and prudent yet the test kits for ammonia simply aren’t going to read hard yellow zero for most testers, for the life of their reef. The motion down is something any test kit can show, and that’s our marker here to separate us from all other cycling threads.

your tank has shown movement down for ammonia, has high surface area for attachment points, and has met the timeframe for the bottle bac used, exceeded its timeframe in fact. We use different markers than zeroes on test kits to call cycles, yours is ready.

nitrite is legit high because this is day ten and nitrite compliance takes thirty days a cycling chart shows, however its neutral in reef cycling, no harm if high register, and we don’t have to wait that long or even own a test for nitrite see post one for details

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Thank you so much for taking your time to help me out @brandon429! I was waiting for a some sort of diatom bloom or an algae bloom of some sort but still not have not seen it. Are there snails that can survive without a little algae? I do see little hairs on some of the rocks but nothing super noticeable (I gotta get close).

Your posts have shown me how to properly apply a API kit to reefing, which will make me much more comfortable moving forward. Thank you

I do have another question (somewhat unrelated), is there a benefit for me to ghost feed prior to adding fish/snails to ensure the bacteria colony continues to grow?

 

[brandon429]

Bacteria cannot be starved once set in, so no need to ghost feed. The test snails added will find the live rock portion and feed off that until standard tank feed intended for fish lands their way. You can also add a fish instead if that was your first stocking plan, the bac are ready and fully taken over all surfaces and the clear, smell free water is proof there’s no ammonia problem lingering


the live rock component was already full, biospira being the #2 bac used in all reefing added bacteria in about two days (ammonia oxidizing ones not necessarily nitrite oxidizing ones) and all the sand and rock has aob all set and full, aob are what keep our animals alive and not burned as we begin after meeting the wait dates on the bottle. I haven’t seen biospira labels to know how many days it recommends but ten days is the max time for all retail bottle bac per labels, I haven’t heard of any advising a longer wait

let the record reflect no lfs in the United States would agree with this thread lol, that’s why it’s rather new info to be testing out
Pet stores honestly do not want to kill animals, that's why they follow the old school wait and add more bacteria approach. But there's a more streamlined/effective way available when breaking from those older rules governing start dates.

all our tanks are doing fine here because we are using what convention tank owners use as cycling rules to start several hundred reef tanks on time for reef convention shows like Reefstock and MACNA. We use depositional timing more than any other factor, the number of days underwater related to the source of bacteria. We also operate on the notion no cycle can be undone after completion unless the tank is boiled, frozen or medicated heavily—-> that’s why the owners move the tanks so assertively into place knowing the bacteria cannot be harmed, slighted, insulted, slowed, or anything bad. The tank will just be ready and stay ready on the dates the convention starts.


*****sellers at the reef convention are using the same tools and measures we use, but they apply them to a different set of start rules and bacterial concepts. The rule that no cycle ever gets undone while wet, or fails to complete within about one hour when ammonia shows down, makes them able to move this fine reef here instantly with 50$K in animals and sell you things to unstick cycles is the unspoken rule.



one recurring theme stands out among all the testing madness we claim misleads the masses: most everyone’s ammonia moves down by day ten which matches a common cycling chart. There are clues and snippets in each post showing how that common wait time from a cycling chart coincides with reliable ammonia control, the charts are reliable and we are using them. Brightwell bac users have posted taking longer than ten days, but not many other brands we can see in pattern developing here.

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Alright Brandon I'm back with a update! It's been 24hrs since I've added a little clown fish and here is my ammonia reading.



It oddly enough appears that my ammonia has gone done even more (Unless I'm struggling to read this thing). Going to continue to monitor ammonia and look for any noticeable spikes. About when should I be looking to do a big water change? I'm assuming its probably pretty safe to do one now since my tank is cycled.

 

[brandon429]

It's already done that's the neat part, we're only lucky the ammonia went down. If it went up everyone would think we're not cycled, but some kits do falsely read. This however is a nice kit

It's cycled and the happy fish will act normally, even if tests disagree a little.

It isn't going to do anything surprising such as uncycle (where the fish dies and water goes cloudy)

Don't allow waste feeding yet, feed only what he totally consumes

 

[howaboutme]

Well, this thread has my interest as I'm cycling right now. However, does anyone ever cycle with no added chemicals? The talk is about the unstuck cycle and then buying more chemicals to get it unstuck. Why not just start w/o the chemicals? That leads me to my situation. Long time hobbyist just back in the game. Cycling a nano with new sand and old rock that was in my old aquarium but dry for about 6 years (so good as dead).

Started cycling in a brute for about 10 days and only ghost fed. I was wondering if I'd get any die off from the 6 yr old rock, unconfirmed. Smelled NH3 about a week into it but API didn't show much. Started ghost feeding flakes on the 3rd day of cycling and have been since then. At the 11th day, I placed the rocks into my DT and did what effectively is a 100% water change. I failed to measure NO3 but I think I should have. I think I would have caught a mini cycle. That said, ghost feeding continued.

On day 17 got the typical .25/.5ppm NH3 from API, not noticeable NO2 and a small amount of NO3. Now I have Salifert to help confirm NO3 # as I believe if I have a good NO3 #, I'm done.

From day 17 to day ~22, I get progressively more NO3 but same NH3 (.25/.5ppm on API) and and NO2 (effectively zero on API). Again, still ghost feeding. Today, NO3 is up to .5ppm on Salifert but ~10ppm on API. Seriously, why test?

How does not using bottled bacteria affect this thinking? I personally think I'm either cycled or very close. That 100% water change on day 10 probably messed with my mind a bit and didn't help confirm the cycle was progressing.

Thoughts?

Pic of tank at day ~17

 

[brandon429]

You are testing the cycling chart accuracy and I thank you for posting a very nonstandard cycle. I'm in agreement

We can't assemble a sterile tank using those materials, synthetic reef salt, rocks with little organic jerky products to be rehydrated... agreed you can access free that which we pay for, if the 30 day mark is a fair wait.


And since we always tie in convention cycling to every form of rocks here, yours just needs water and a brute for 30 days, change water for new, add bioload it lives. * variable not from a cycling chart: you have a two foot eunice worm coiled up and jerkied in the rocks lol/ leaks a long time.

Given no jerky, 30 days is your setup, we'd start a month early and move the wet rocks to the convention. No where on a cycling chart does it say we have to drive ammonia up to two ppm to register a down trend.

That's an arbitrary number made up for testing bottled bacteria. The cycling chart shows when a common decent starting bioload will live, at 30 days, and the rocks are transferrable thereafter infinitely as long as they're kept wet. standard home contaminations/reasons I have to clean brown off my blinds on the window monthly/have added lots of new carbon as substrate for quick development as well


needs only water, inoculation source (done) and now time. cycle chart complete thanks for posting pls post when it has life in it/cloudy vs clear water is the entirely decisive factor on if this works or not, for your set of rocks in particular.

if you can maintain clear water with those rocks alone and some form of clear rinsed sand as the only contact area, you have eliminated rot in excess of what 30 day natural bac can handle.

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Don't allow waste feeding yet, feed only what he totally consumes

I literally missed this post by 5 minutes. I added about 4-5 extra pellets by mistake. Will it be alright? I do have a nassarius snail in there also.

 

[brandon429]

they should be removed

the snail doesn't need the extra just yet.

 

[Hot2na]

didnt read this whole thread -so sorry if it's already been said...but yrs ago a rep from carib sea told me -to unstall a seemingly slow or stalled cycle - INCREASE FLOW....in the tank... fwiw
P.S. that was back in the day when DSB's were all the rage

 

[TheWalkingCoral]

Just checked and they are long gone. What will ensue exactly?

Edit: Are you referring to algae growth or just trying to keep ammonia down?

 

[howaboutme]

You are testing the cycling chart accuracy and I thank you for posting a very nonstandard cycle. I'm in agreement

We can't assemble a sterile tank using those materials, synthetic reef salt, rocks with little organic jerky products to be rehydrated... agreed you can access free that which we pay for, if the 30 day mark is a fair wait.


And since we always tie in convention cycling to every form of rocks here, yours just needs water and a brute for 30 days, change water for new, add bioload it lives. * variable not from a cycling chart: you have a two foot eunice worm coiled up and jerkied in the rocks lol/ leaks a long time.

Given no jerky, 30 days is your setup, we'd start a month early and move the wet rocks to the convention. No where on a cycling chart does it say we have to drive ammonia up to two ppm to register a down trend.

That's an arbitrary number made up for testing bottled bacteria. The cycling chart shows when a common decent starting bioload will live, at 30 days, and the rocks are transferrable thereafter infinitely as long as they're kept wet. standard home contaminations/reasons I have to clean brown off my blinds on the window monthly/have added lots of new carbon as substrate for quick development as well


needs only water, inoculation source (done) and now time. cycle chart complete thanks for posting pls post when it has life in it/cloudy vs clear water is the entirely decisive factor on if this works or not, for your set of rocks in particular.

if you can maintain clear water with those rocks alone and some form of clear rinsed sand as the only contact area, you have eliminated rot in excess of what 30 day natural bac can handle.

I'm in agreement. ~ 30 days is a non arbitrary arbitrary # we use to help compensate for our hobby-grade tests and roughly proven by the test of time.

Yes, I like looking at things "growing" from the rocks. Rocks that sat dry for ~6 years but had tons of live on them prior. Maybe even a pistol shrimp as I failed to catch it during the break down.

I've kept my lights off but since the tank is in a room that has ambient light most of the day, I do see some algae on the glass. Not cleaning them. I'm thinking of turning on the lights at a low level the last few days of the cycle to help introduce more nutrients. Then some CUC to "test". They will have something to eat in an otherwise clean tank...Good thread.

 

[brandon429]

Walking coral it was mainly bc excess feed is #1 causative for clouding, and clouding is what we use as a bad beacon so we don't want false alarm clouding due to food rot or as mentioned above, lack of flow

That's a darn good call above about increasing flow, whoever said that at the lfs gets internet cycling cool club sticker we agree. increasing flow of wastewater over contact surfaces directly maximizes contact surface in any presentation and makes a better filter for ammonia. plus it becomes dislodging of impaction over time, this can function to increase surface area without any other actual changes other than stronger flow than before sinking

 

[brandon429]

@howaboutme

I must introduce the greatest conundrum in reefing since you are about 90% close to testing it.

The timeframe for a truly unassisted marine cycle is not known.

no reefing guru has listed how long it takes, the one part of your experiment that changes it from unassisted into assisted is the rehydrated organics, those are directly boosted bacterial feed in every possible way. total feed, yummy feed when rehydrated and broken down by non filtration bacteria to lend ammonia into the machinery for nitrification establishment.

But a true unassisted cycle is dry sand, totally dry inert rock, sat in saltwater open topped circulated and heated, and then wait

X number of days to carry a reasonable starting bioload, with decent current lets say it can oxidize .5 ppm ammonia nh3 very quickly max. that's enough for legit cycling call, nobody knows how long this takes.

The cycling chart we use is for freshwater ~ as dry expoxy gravel, tap water with start right, fake palm trees was every tank I owned as a kid and if you waited 30 days as told, your gouramis and swords lived.

if you cheated, and bought them at one weeks wait, they all died and you went back to the pet store and they caught you, in that order lol.

Nobody knows how long truly unassisted marine cycling to .5 ppm removal ability takes to set in for a given set of dry goods, in saltwater.

New science, out there for the tanking. an article is needed on this, stat.

*the seed sources for freshwater work are everywhere, in the garden we know, in the air as dust etc/vectors everywhere

marine is different, especially if in Kansas

other bacteria get in and simply handle the salt, we think, establishing an initial food web that really does handle some ammonia on X date and then over time and alternation of generations new bacteria lay down into place for long term establishment, even in a reef in Kansas. unassisted. Ill be happy one day to have this answer, it eludes us for now.


In every form of marine cycle either the bac are boosted or the feed reserves, that's why we don't get the answer. if I had to guess based on patterns, within 90 days of setup. faster if kept outside.
B

 

[howaboutme]

@howaboutme

I must introduce the greatest conundrum in reefing since you are about 90% close to testing it.

The timeframe for a truly unassisted marine cycle is not known.

no reefing guru has listed how long it takes, the one part of your experiment that changes it from unassisted into assisted is the rehydrated organics, those are directly boosted bacterial feed in every possible way. total feed, yummy feed when rehydrated and broken down by non filtration bacteria to lend ammonia into the machinery for nitrification establishment.

But a true unassisted cycle is dry sand, totally dry inert rock, sat in saltwater open topped circulated and heated, and then wait

X number of days to carry a reasonable starting bioload, with decent current lets say it can oxidize .5 ppm ammonia nh3 very quickly max. that's enough for legit cycling call, nobody knows how long this takes.

The cycling chart we use is for freshwater ~ as dry expoxy gravel, tap water with start right, fake palm trees was every tank I owned as a kid and if you waited 30 days as told, your gouramis and swords lived.

if you cheated, and bought them at one weeks wait, they all died and you went back to the pet store and they caught you, in that order lol.

Nobody knows how long truly unassisted marine cycling to .5 ppm takes to set in for a given set of dry goods.

New science, out there for the tanking. an article is needed on this, stat.

*the seed sources for freshwater work are everywhere, in the garden we know, in the air as dust etc/vectors everywhere

marine is different, especially if in Kansas

other bacteria get in and simply handle the salt, we think, establishing an initial food web that really does handle some ammonia on X date and then over time and alternation of generations new bacteria lay down into place for long term establishment, even in a reef in Kansas. unassisted. Ill be happy one day to have this answer, it eludes us for now.
B

Here's my theory of what's happening in my tank. I believe it is "cycling" and it can be debated whether or not it's "ready". I believe you and I may agree that it is more ready than not. I also believe I am "stuck" at .25/.5ppm NH3 (API) and 0 NO2 and negligible NO3 because there is just not enough bioload to get those #'s higher. My tank is processing that small amount of yummy reef flakes too fast for it to detect a higher NO3. (This is all assuming what we already know, which is that API NH3 tests gives false readings so we have to take it in relativity and putting it in context.)

Now, of course I can further experiment by adding pure ammonia (or whatever they call it at BRS/LFS/etc) and getting that number to the magical 2ppm but I won't. That'll defeat my purpose of starting with a sterile tank that is 100% controlled by me.

 

[brandon429]

very happy to know its outcome for sure, very nice and rare nonstandard approach. we need more like this to find procedural boundaries that are inherent truths tank to tank but still not quite pinpointed by us

heck, most of the issue is basic ammonia testing, knowing true nh3 dynamics without a calibrated, proven-working seneye is darn hard. its that change from a slight green to mostly yellow we like on the api's to make use of the most common tester. we know not to expect hard yellow zero in too many of the api offers.