Hydrogen Peroxide

[Mortie31]

You sum up my position nicely if we add a clarification around what I am doubting.

I believe what people are observing and report about their aquarium, but I doubt their conclusion that the Oxydator is the explanation. This doubt arises from the size and design of the Oxydator.

Hi Dan, can you offer any other explanation for why I never have any yellowing of my water, I don’t run any carbon or ozone... I cannot explain it, I even don’t have my mechanical filtrtion other than a skimmer and what muck collects in my chaeto. I use the W model oxydator on a 200 gallon tank, which holds 1L of 12% H2O2, I use 2 catalysts, and this completely empties in 6 weeks = about 22ml H2O2 per day, now quite what ends up in my tank I’m not sure about, is it heavy O2, is it H2O2, a bit of both? or something else? if you have any other theories as to what could be keeping my water clear please share as I can’t think of any..

 

[Dan_P]

Hi Dan, can you offer any other explanation for why I never have any yellowing of my water, I don’t run any carbon or ozone... I cannot explain it, I even don’t have my mechanical filtrtion other than a skimmer and what muck collects in my chaeto. I use the W model oxydator on a 200 gallon tank, which holds 1L of 12% H2O2, I use 2 catalysts, and this completely empties in 6 weeks = about 22ml H2O2 per day, now quite what ends up in my tank I’m not sure about, is it heavy O2, is it H2O2, a bit of both? or something else? if you have any other theories as to what could be keeping my water clear please share as I can’t think of any..

The answer might require a bit more research on my part to fully answer your question. So, here is part 1.

The Oxydator is maybe best described as a hydrogen peroxide dosing system. The catalyst used in the device is there to slowly generate oxygen pressure to ”push” out hydrogen peroxide into the aquarium. Because of the stability of hydrogen peroxide in water, it is able diffuse and be carried quite far from the Oxydator. Eventually though it can do roughly two things, decompose to oxygen or generate a reactive oxygen species. The decomposition to oxygen might be an uninteresting event given that there is a lot of oxygen around in the water (NOTE: I will calculate the maximum amount of oxygen produced for your data above In part 2 of my reply). The reactive chemical species is more interesting because it is the chemical species responible for reacting with organic matter and causing it to decompose. It can also be harmful to living things.

Yellow water is caused by gelbstoff which is colored dissolved organic carbon. It is a byproduct of reactions in aquarium water of biologically derived molecules and is a complex mixture. Reactive oxygen species should react with gelbstoff and partially or completely destroy It. Here is where I need to do more reading on the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide on decomposing gelbstoff, another part 2 topic.

Back soon...

Dan

 

[atoll]

The following was sent to me a while back. I asked Arian the importer and seller of Oxydators in the UK if he could get an answer for me to a question that had been bugging me about Oxydators and the release of peroxide into the DT.
A definitive answer to a long-running question about how the Oxydator dispenses is Oxygen/peroxide getting an answer from Söchting Biotechnik the makers of the Oxydator. I got the reply I had been seeking which Adrian kindly passed onto me and he has allowed me to share it

Here is the reply from Söchting Biotechnik

Quote "
The catalyst inside pruduces oxygen for the pressure to push out H2O2 steadily.
The outside ceramic is also a catalyst and there part of the H2O2 get dossolved into
water and O2. But part of the H2O2 gets free into the water and oxidates,
and increase the Redox potential of the water - thats also important to increase water quality.

Kind Regards, Uwe"

 

[Mortie31]

The answer might require a bit more research on my part to fully answer your question. So, here is part 1.

The Oxydator is maybe best described as a hydrogen peroxide dosing system. The catalyst used in the device is there to slowly generate oxygen pressure to ”push” out hydrogen peroxide into the aquarium. Because of the stability of hydrogen peroxide in water, it is able diffuse and be carried quite far from the Oxydator. Eventually though it can do roughly two things, decompose to oxygen or generate a reactive oxygen species. The decomposition to oxygen might be an uninteresting event given that there is a lot of oxygen around in the water (NOTE: I will calculate the maximum amount of oxygen produced for your data above In part 2 of my reply). The reactive chemical species is more interesting because it is the chemical species responible for reacting with organic matter and causing it to decompose. It can also be harmful to living things.

Yellow water is caused by gelbstoff which is colored dissolved organic carbon. It is a byproduct of reactions in aquarium water of biologically derived molecules and is a complex mixture. Reactive oxygen species should react with gelbstoff and partially or completely destroy It. Here is where I need to do more reading on the effectiveness of hydrogen peroxide on decomposing gelbstoff, another part 2 topic.

Back soon...

Dan

Hey Dan thanks for this, look forward to the rest

 

[Dan_P]

Hi Dan, can you offer any other explanation for why I never have any yellowing of my water, I don’t run any carbon or ozone... I cannot explain it, I even don’t have my mechanical filtrtion other than a skimmer and what muck collects in my chaeto. I use the W model oxydator on a 200 gallon tank, which holds 1L of 12% H2O2, I use 2 catalysts, and this completely empties in 6 weeks = about 22ml H2O2 per day, now quite what ends up in my tank I’m not sure about, is it heavy O2, is it H2O2, a bit of both? or something else? if you have any other theories as to what could be keeping my water clear please share as I can’t think of any..

Here is part 2 of my answer.

If the Oxydator is an oxygen generator, then the usage rate of hydrogen peroxide you quote would generate 0.1 ppm O2 per hour. There is already about 7 ppm O2 in an aerated aquarium. Oxygen by itself is not known to have much of an effect on dissolved organic carbon or colored dissolved organic carbon (gelbstoff). Therefore, this level of oxygen enrichment should have no direct influence on yellow water.

If the Oxydator is a hydrogen peroxide dispenser, the level of H2O2 in your system could reach 5 ppm based on your daily average rate of consumption. As a reference, the popular recommended starting dose of hydrogen peroxide is 1 mL of 3% for every 10 gallon, which works out to be about 1 ppm H2O2. Something to think about.

I have not come across any posts about the successful application of hydrogen peroxide to control yellow water. The only scientific litereature that I have read so far discusses the role of UV and gelbstoff in the generation of H2O2(!). Another possibility to consider is that H2O2 can decompose and generate reactive oxygen species. These species are very reactive and can lead to the breakdown of organic matter. These radicals also harm living organisms. Certain levels of peroxide have been shown to alter the biodiversity of bacteria in water purification processes. Maybe, there is a concentration of H2O2 that is not harmful to the aquarium inhabitants that generates enough reactive oxygen species to decolorize yellow water.

The other idea to consider is that unless you have a way to measure the color level of aquarium water, you cannot be certain that the Oxydator is having any effect at all (my placebo conjecture). While yellow can be seen by the human eye, detecting low level amounts in uncontrolled situations, like in an aquarium, might be impossible. So, you may have yellow water after all.

I will be on the lookout for information relating to H2O2 and controlling gelbstoff.

Dan

 

[Mortie31]

Here is part 2 of my answer.

If the Oxydator is an oxygen generator, then the usage rate of hydrogen peroxide you quote would generate 0.1 ppm O2 per hour. There is already about 7 ppm O2 in an aerated aquarium. Oxygen by itself is not known to have much of an effect on dissolved organic carbon or colored dissolved organic carbon (gelbstoff). Therefore, this level of oxygen enrichment should have no direct influence on yellow water.

If the Oxydator is a hydrogen peroxide dispenser, the level of H2O2 in your system could reach 5 ppm based on your daily average rate of consumption. As a reference, the popular recommended starting dose of hydrogen peroxide is 1 mL of 3% for every 10 gallon, which works out to be about 1 ppm H2O2. Something to think about.

I have not come across any posts about the successful application of hydrogen peroxide to control yellow water. The only scientific litereature that I have read so far discusses the role of UV and gelbstoff in the generation of H2O2(!). Another possibility to consider is that H2O2 can decompose and generate reactive oxygen species. These species are very reactive and can lead to the breakdown of organic matter. These radicals also harm living organisms. Certain levels of peroxide have been shown to alter the biodiversity of bacteria in water purification processes. Maybe, there is a concentration of H2O2 that is not harmful to the aquarium inhabitants that generates enough reactive oxygen species to decolorize yellow water.

The other idea to consider is that unless you have a way to measure the color level of aquarium water, you cannot be certain that the Oxydator is having any effect at all (my placebo conjecture). While yellow can be seen by the human eye, detecting low level amounts in uncontrolled situations, like in an aquarium, might be impossible. So, you may have yellow water after all.

I will be on the lookout for information relating to H2O2 and controlling gelbstoff.

Dan

Thanks Dan for taking the time, by Combining your possible explanations and those from sochting
Here is the reply from Söchting Biotechnik

Quote "
The catalyst inside pruduces oxygen for the pressure to push out H2O2 steadily.
The outside ceramic is also a catalyst and there part of the H2O2 get dossolved into
water and O2. But part of the H2O2 gets free into the water and oxidates,
and increase the Redox potential of the water - thats also important to increase water quality”’

I think it’s quite possible all of the processes described are happening, the production of oxygen you have calculated would only represent a small addition to a running system, i wonder how impotant this addition could be during a power outage for instance? it’s a pity I broke my DO sensor or I could have done some measurements... I have been reefing for nearly 20 years and have seen yellow water enough times to know when I have it or not, and before i started running the oxydator I ran carbon 24/7 for all of the time I’ve been reefing and if I forgot to change it, I would start to see a yellowing... since switching this is something I’ve never observed, so my only anecdotal conclusion is that the oxydator is producing something that contributes to this...

 

[atoll]

Thanks Dan for taking the time, by Combining your possible explanations and those from sochting
Here is the reply from Söchting Biotechnik

Quote "
The catalyst inside pruduces oxygen for the pressure to push out H2O2 steadily.
The outside ceramic is also a catalyst and there part of the H2O2 get dossolved into
water and O2. But part of the H2O2 gets free into the water and oxidates,
and increase the Redox potential of the water - thats also important to increase water quality”’

I think it’s quite possible all of the processes described are happening, the production of oxygen you have calculated would only represent a small addition to a running system, i wonder how impotant this addition could be during a power outage for instance? it’s a pity I broke my DO sensor or I could have done some measurements... I have been reefing for nearly 20 years and have seen yellow water enough times to know when I have it or not, and before i started running the oxydator I ran carbon 24/7 for all of the time I’ve been reefing and if I forgot to change it, I would start to see a yellowing... since switching this is something I’ve never observed, so my only anecdotal conclusion is that the oxydator is producing something that contributes to this...

Many people experience much clearer water and highlight it by doing the white card test.
Found the following on the net with regards to the affect of hydrogen peroxide use on trout.

Efficacy of Hydrogen Peroxide to Control Parasitic Infestations on Hatchery-Reared Fish | Request PDF

Request PDF | Efficacy of Hydrogen Peroxide to Control Parasitic Infestations on Hatchery-Reared Fish | The efficacy of hydrogen peroxide to control external parasitic infestations on juvenile (10–33-g) rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss was evaluated... | Find, read and cite all the research you...

www.researchgate.net

 

[Stigigemla]

The break down time for hydrogen peroxide in a reef tank is short. I believe usually in the order of an hour.
I have been dosing it with an oxydator and it had much less effect on most cyanos than making 2 dosings a day with a syringe.
I have stopped Uronema on Chromis in 2 days using oxydator. Maybe it works on other parasites too in their free swimming state.

 

[Dan_P]

The break down time for hydrogen peroxide in a reef tank is short. I believe usually in the order of an hour.
I have been dosing it with an oxydator and it had much less effect on most cyanos than making 2 dosings a day with a syringe.
I have stopped Uronema on Chromis in 2 days using oxydator. Maybe it works on other parasites too in their free swimming state.

I measured the stability of hydrogen peroxide in a sample of tank water and in the aquarium. It decomposes slowly in a sample of tank water (>24 hours) and rapidly in the aquarium (much less than a day). Your observation that bolus dosing is more effective is consistent with the short half life in the aquarium.