I stopped equalising water for fish.

[fish farmer]

I just posted on a thread recently where a person dripped their clownfish for two hours inside the bags they came in.

So two hours inside some dirty bag water with no flow, no way of good oxygen exchange.

Both fish died.

I can’t 100 percent say with a fact it was the drip but you can’t convince me it is beneficial to keep a fish in a tiny amount of water like that without flow.

If you want to drip, that is ok but do it safely. Do it in a bucket of new water (ideally, especially if shipped) to match with an airstone or at least agitate the water now and again if it is going to be a long drip. Otherwise keep it 30 min tops by adding scoops of water instead.

That's a long time. There was one instance where I dripped a fish for three hours. A wild caught butterfly taken in 55 degree water off Rhode Island. Temp acclimated up to mid 70's. It lived for a couple of weeks in an fowlr, got it eating brine shrimp nauplii.

 

[Tamberav]

That's a long time. There was one instance where I dripped a fish for three hours. A wild caught butterfly taken in 55 degree water off Rhode Island. Temp acclimated up to mid 70's. It lived for a couple of weeks in an fowlr, got it eating brine shrimp nauplii.

Yes it was extreme but they are a beginner and just following advice. Often the advice given for drip isn’t very detailed either.

What happened to the butterfly? Was 70 too high you think or something else happen?

 

[piranhaman00]

Same, drip acclimating is only more stressful, for coral and fish i temp acclimate and put in tank, don’t check salinity.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes it was extreme but they are a beginner and just following advice. Often the advice given for drip isn’t very detailed either.

What happened to the butterfly? Was 70 too high you think or something else happen?

Personally since the fish i get are a good 10 ppt off in the water i just add RODI water to my QT to match the salinity. If it's an expensive fish or very delicate I'd let evaporation raise the salinity but otherwise I'd just raise it through water changes. since the QT is only 5 gallons it's not hard to raise salinity as quickly or slowly as i feel is necessary. That way i get it out of the bag quickly while also avoiding any unnecessary stress from raising the salinity too quickly or immediately...i know not everyone has a 5 gallon QT though...

 

[Tamberav]

Personally since the fish i get are a good 10 ppt off in the water i just add RODI water to my QT to match the salinity. If it's an expensive fish or very delicate I'd let evaporation raise the salinity but otherwise I'd just raise it through water changes. since the QT is only 5 gallons it's not hard to raise salinity as quickly or slowly as i feel is necessary. That way i get it out of the bag quickly while also avoiding any unnecessary stress from raising the salinity too quickly or immediately...i know not everyone has a 5 gallon QT though...

Yes matching the QT is a perfect way to do it for those that QT. The thing is you match QT then add the fish, you don't do a long drip into QT...

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes matching the QT is a perfect way to do it for those that QT. The thing is you match QT then add the fish, you don't do a long drip into QT...

Exactly...i get em out of the bag quickly!

 

[i cant think]

If you want to seeing on video do it then. It's been a long time since I added a fish and I don't see me adding any any day soon. Why do people always have to carry out experiments or show videos for others? My post is what I now do and all my fish have been fine plus many as you will know will disappear into the rockwork as soon as introduced. Theyvare likely to be at least a little stressed due to travel and being in a small amount of water probably containing some ammonia so a little gasping etc is to be expected and not unusual.
My fish live long lives and as far as I am concerned am more or less maxed out fish wise.
Adding fish is a bit like drinking alcohol. Knowing when it's time to stop.

The biggest reason people want it on video is;
Prove your theory is correct, prove to us through video evidence that this will work for any fish and that fish don’t show osmotic shock.

I think one thing we need to remember is our LFSs (and we have more LFSs than America) will have their holding tanks set up FOR a reef tank’s parameters. The US in a way doesn’t get the luxury we do, their stores for fish are often online and they tend to ship fish in much lower Salinities than our LFS’s sell the fish in. The other thing is LFSs tend to be just a hours/half hour drive whilst they have fish shipped over night.
I personally drip sensitive fish - I’ve seen Floating being more stressful to them and I have lost sensitive fish due to floating whilst I rarely lose those fish due to dripping.
When I say sensitive fish, I’m talking Regal Angels, Achilles Tangs, Copperband Butterflies ect.
I will float hardier fish such as Clowns, Fairy Wrasses, (Smaller) Foxfaces ect.

The other time I will drip is if the fish in the bag is too big to stay in the bag when it’s closed. I have dripped a 3 inch Magnificent Foxface because of this and I also dripped my Regal Angel because of this (as well as it being a sensitive fish).

Here was my most recent drip when it comes to fish.

And the last time I remember floating a fish was this guy.

I can speak for both ways and by far I prefer the drip for most fish but other fish I will happily float. I hate floating sand sleeping wrasses as they just try to go down into the sandbed and risk mouth damage.

 

[fish farmer]

Yes it was extreme but they are a beginner and just following advice. Often the advice given for drip isn’t very detailed either.

What happened to the butterfly? Was 70 too high you think or something else happen?

It was in an aggressive tank, not that it was picked on, but target feeding was challenging. I think it may have also got ich. This was many years ago, about 30. Every September there are divers that go out and collect tropicals in Rhode Island before they die of the cold.

 

[ingchr1]

I love how when an unconventional idea is brought up, people are quick to dismiss or bash said idea...

Is it really that unconventional? Skimming this thread, it seams like a method used by hobbiests and professionals a like.

One cannot concluded that dripping prevented death, but one can conclude that death did not occur from not dripping.

Perhaps people can detail where not dripping has not been successful (i.e. where the fish has died from the process).

I have had success with all fish I have not dripped.

 

[rtparty]

I haven’t “acclimated” a fish in over 15 years. Temp float for 10-15 minutes and in they go. My water quality is 100x better than that tiny bag they’re slowly dying in. Not to mention once you open the bag you instantly create ammonia. I’d rather get them out of that mess and into my tank.

 

[brandon429]

I relay to my cyclers / from Jay this was not my idea/ that acclimation is required when bringing up salinity from common pet store holdings at .017/.018

it isn't bag acclimation, we think that does kill/stress/ via ammonia in the bag, but not from the tank

I have been advising new cyclers to simply not buy fish from .018 facilities and buy them from stock tanks in pet stores that keep a reasonable salinity, and, they take their own salinity meter and go verify it themselves/quit taking people for their word (which is why I like to see things on video, when people ask me for proof videos I already have ten years worth ready its never an offense, I don't get defensive for verification requests I enjoy making change in the hobby in ways that myriad threads of other people's reef will show upon request + my own demo videos from prior decade)

the way we have them acclimate is by brining the salinity of their new tank down to match the crappy water the fish came in, then bring it up slowly back to normal. we don't advise bag floating.

or, since they're supposed to be practicing fallow anyway (but rarely will until their 5th fish population restock) they can use their fallow tank at a low salinity like the receiving water and bring that up to .023 in a four day course.


this is the first thread my cyclers see before any concern over ammonia in a reef tank

Need help! Fish are dying but inverts are fine

150g DP (first fish 9/5/22) 55g sump theiling roller mat for filter 3- AI Hydra 32's used a blend of white rock and "life" rock Sand bed is about 1-1/2 inches thick Neptune Apex (PH Temp ORP) Dr Tims One and Only had been added occasionally, especially after adding new fish Fish Status...

www.reef2reef.com

the second thread they see is a link to Jay's disease forum, so they learn to concern over disease vector imports, well before we discuss ammonia control which is no longer a problem in reefing. it's a non issue

acclimation but not by dripping into a bag and disease control are where fish retention is at in 2023 and beyond. not cycling, that's been thought out for us and requires no coaxing and no prep, merely tilting a bottle and pouring into a tank/you're cycled.

 

[atoll]

The biggest reason people want it on video is;
Prove your theory is correct, prove to us through video evidence that this will work for any fish and that fish don’t show osmotic shock.

I think one thing we need to remember is our LFSs (and we have more LFSs than America) will have their holding tanks set up FOR a reef tank’s parameters. The US in a way doesn’t get the luxury we do, their stores for fish are often online and they tend to ship fish in much lower Salinities than our LFS’s sell the fish in. The other thing is LFSs tend to be just a hours/half hour drive whilst they have fish shipped over night.
I personally drip sensitive fish - I’ve seen Floating being more stressful to them and I have lost sensitive fish due to floating whilst I rarely lose those fish due to dripping.
When I say sensitive fish, I’m talking Regal Angels, Achilles Tangs, Copperband Butterflies ect.
I will float hardier fish such as Clowns, Fairy Wrasses, (Smaller) Foxfaces ect.

The other time I will drip is if the fish in the bag is too big to stay in the bag when it’s closed. I have dripped a 3 inch Magnificent Foxface because of this and I also dripped my Regal Angel because of this (as well as it being a sensitive fish).

Here was my most recent drip when it comes to fish.

And the last time I remember floating a fish was this guy.

I can speak for both ways and by far I prefer the drip for most fish but other fish I will happily float. I hate floating sand sleeping wrasses as they just try to go down into the sandbed and risk mouth damage.

I have no need nor desire to prove what I do. Anyway, I don't believe it's possible to prove what I do is either good or bad as itstoo complicated to do and itsnot that simple.

When first introduced most fish I buy disappear, most fish are exhibiting stress. If I drip climatised them over a period ( which is what I used to do) they would still disappear and most probably still show signs of stress for those that didn't . What would that prove?

When I say I do something people can believe me or not. That’s their choice. When others on here say they do the same as me I believe them. I also believe those that do something different. Am not a lair, I am not selling anything nor have anything to gain. Why would I say I do this but do something different.

I have no filter wool, no roller mat, no sock or physical filtration apart from a skimmer. Do people really need to see photos showing I don't have these things.
I have no problem if people don't believe in what I do and do something different after all I followed the crowd some years ago with filter wool and socks.

I used to slowly acclimatise the water in the fish bag with that of the DT. I haven't done so for some years now and haven't witnessed any negative affect on them, quite the opposite in fact I believe the sooner they are out the bag and in my tank the better. Works for me and others on here judging by some of the responses.

 

[ingchr1]

Yes, this is a dangerous thread...

This thread is not "dangerous".

Threads like this are discussions the hobby should be having.

 

[i cant think]

This thread is not "dangerous".

Some people in this hobby get incredibly protective of certain ways, it’s like QT… have you ever seen threads of people discussing QT and the other ways of doing it?
This is one of those threads that will either remain civil or people will just outright wreck it.

 

[KrisReef]

Yes, this is a dangerous thread. It very much depends on the fish, what's fine for a tang may not be fine for an anthias. And inverts are a completely different story since many are from tide pools and see frequent changes in salinity.

In the freshwater world, you would be a fool to do anything but scoop and dump discus fish - osmotic shock doesn't bother them, but they need clean water. But another fish from the same area, cardinal tetras, must be drip acclimated unless your water has the same hardness or you'll lose most of them due to osmotic shock.

I think this is a great answer and reflects well for delicate fresh water fishes. I think the salt water fishes are ready-built to handle osmotic stress just to live in seawater [email protected]. I have watched many shipment of saltwater fishes floated for temperature and then their bags were sliced open over a net and the fish gets plopped into a commercial tank @1.026. Deaths from shipping stress & complications may occur but the salinity/mixing and drip acclimation did not prevent those losses.

I don't want to be part of a dangerous thread. Shipping losses are a good reason to stop our hobby; How can we support the death of a fish, invert, etc, due to shipping? "Leave it in the sea" (isn't an option for me and my Aquarium).

 

[brandon429]

not a dangerous thread at all


anything against the grain of the masses is deemed dangerous (skip cycling for example, same day setups with fish + bottle bac, the masses instantly deem it dangerous)


*the reason I'm not linking this thread as the first read to our cycling threads/acclimation doesn't matter in reefing/is because Jay directly typed against it in his forum and Atoll isn't running forums of other people's tanks, that's key. All of Atolls writeups and examples are from his tank.


I only want to feature things that specifically work in other people's reefs. Jay would advocate this, if it was realistic for res publica.

 

[DCR]

The danger of dripping as I understand it is that the pH of the water in the bag is likely depressed due to CO2 build-up and ammonia that has been released by the fish is tied up as non-toxic ammonium chloride. When you open the bag and drip, you are releasing the CO2 and raising the pH which converts the ammonium to ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

I'm against bag dripping for sure.


I'm for acclimation however, since I'm seeing fish die in our cycling posts from the acclimation jump (on cue, masses scream out: Its ammonia! the display wasn't cycled!)


I'm for acclimation between .017 holding water and .024 reef water by methods not involved in bag dripping or floating. get creative. for initial stocking/first fish/we can have the new cyclers simply bring down their ready tank to receive the .017 fish then bring it back up before corals, and quit buying fish from that source so that round two inputs/disease vectors he he aren't salinity shocked.

I specifically think that since Atoll does not run fish disease forums, nor have any cycling threads for new tank startups he runs, it's very very very easy to just state to everyone simply do not acclimate. seems good on paper anyway/his reef is about as pro as it can get after all.

99% of the people reading this advise aren't reefing in a +20 year old, twenty thousand dollar sps reef where the keeper is as nuanced in the game as bob ross was with a common paintbrush


give advice that matches the context your readers see

 

[w8lifts]

Do a temp acclimate on everything, then full send into the depths.

 

[brandon429]

I like this pattern for vetting procedural information, it helps me discern best practices in reefing:


Jay, from the disease forum, I have no idea what kind of reef he has at home. He does outbound reefing here, and we can click to see his % success feedback rate. all his posts are about other people's reef tanks, fish disease controls matching the context his readers see is 100% part of his daily type fare. he doesn't tell us over and over about his home reef, I don't even know what he has and I've read a thousand of his posts.


Humblefish, same, I don't even know if he has a home reef. I'd assume he does, but when I click his name badge here or on his site, and read, its not 150 posts about his reef tank. its *always* about reef tanks for others

Randy, same. His reef was taken down about eight years ago if I'm not wrong. I didn't even know he had a reef before then because he does not use his reef as the example for everything he posts, he uses objective chemistry rules and we can click to read his % safety/success outcome from the thousands he advises. The most I ever heard Randy state about his home reef was that piled up aerated detritus in a sump is harmless, that's it. that's the sole reference I've ever seen him make to his home reef.


If I click on Paul's or Atoll's posts, I see the complete opposite data set and reference set. I can see by clicking on their posts they have a 100% success rate at home

This does not diminish one iota how great their reefs are, there are thousands of pictures of them online to see and they look great every decade running. If I set up a large reef tank it would never look or run as good as Atoll's not a joke. I cannot paint like bob ross either.


I want my instructional steps from people who manage other people's reef tanks in forum links I can click to garner the % safety and success outcome myself, without hearing of their summary.


This is not me being mean to Atoll or Paul, this is me vetting what Atoll is blanket recommending against what Jay and Humblefish recommend, and I choose them as a better source for what works the best for others reef tanks because I can't find a single pic of their home tank online, all their work is for others, they run reef forums vs just post in them, and that inspection trail exists for easy finding and verification.

I've no need to send either of them a video request because alternate proof exists by the thousands of available clicks for their claims of best procedure.