Ich??? in QT after treatment?

[Jwils27]

So I am at a loss right now. I had velvet outbreak after introducing achilles to my system. Did not qt came from a local store that runs copper and had this achilles for 6 months. I thought I was in the clear. I was not. So out everyone came.

I Qt'ed for 76 days(to take care of ich too) my tank has been fallow for 76 days. I treated with Cupermine. For 4 weeks at the recommended dose measured with the sachem cooper test. Today was the day to put the fish back in the display. And I look at the fish and there it is. White spots on my Achilles Tang.

They are all still in Qt I used Display water to do water change in case by some crazy off chance something like this happens. So Now what.

Is it even possible that this is ich? Seems impossible. The only thing that is strange is that the spots look stringy almost. Kind of like they where stung by bristle worms. No worms in QT obviously.

Two factors that lean towards ich. 1) My Qt is only a couple feet away from my sump. Potential aerosol transmission 2) I got corals about a month ago and I am not set up to QT coral yet. I dipped with Coral Rx and poured water display water over corals.

Please someone tell me it is not ich. It is infuriating to think it could be. If so what are some other treatment options. I can do cup ermine again but honestly I would rather not.

Thanks in advance everyone.

 

[Jwils27]

In the picture a lot of spots are in the water column.

Also I swear they are in different places each time I look at it.

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Did you do a FW dip for flukes? Hard to tell from the pics but are those spots raised? If the spots look like specs of salt then it’s probably ich, if not and more like slightly swollen skin it could be flukes.

Your QT is definitely too close to your sump

 

[HotRocks]

Unfortunately you didn't get a true fallow by adding corals 30 days ago.

There were most likely tomonts encysted upon the new corals releasing free swimmers. Which is likely how when you used the DT water you transferred them.

FWIW. Coral dips will remove coral pests. However they will not remove parasites encysted to the plug/rock/or whatever the coral is attached to.

 

[Jwils27]

Did you do a FW dip for flukes? Hard to tell from the pics but are those spots raised? If the spots look like specs of salt then it’s probably ich, if not and more like slightly swollen skin it could be flukes.

Your QT is definitely too close to your sump

Yes a couple spots are raised and some seem fleshy like the are scrapes. Tang is not rubbing or acting abnormal. No experience with flukes.

 

[Big G]

Unfortunately you didn't get a true fallow by adding corals 30 days ago.

There were most likely tomonts encysted upon the new corals releasing free swimmers. Which is likely how when you used the DT water you transferred them.

FWIW. Coral dips will remove coral pests. However they will not remove parasites encysted to the plug/rock/or whatever the coral is attached to.

+1 ^^^ Coral RX is really more of an antiseptic product. Many prefer to remove old frag plugs, dip new incoming corals in Bayer, rinse, rinse, rinse. Then use a product like Coral RX or Lugol's (if there is evident damage), rinse, rinse, rinse. And then attach to new clean frag plug. And lastly QT for 76 days in an coral/invert only fishless QT.

 

[Jwils27]

Unfortunately you didn't get a true fallow by adding corals 30 days ago.

There were most likely tomonts encysted upon the new corals releasing free swimmers. Which is likely how when you used the DT water you transferred them.

FWIW. Coral dips will remove coral pests. However they will not remove parasites encysted to the plug/rock/or whatever the coral is attached to.

So fallow again for 76 after coral purchase? Seems so unlikely but here we are. Also how likely is it that there is aerosol transmission of ich?

 

[HotRocks]

So fallow again for 76 after coral purchase? Seems so unlikely but here we are. Also how likely is it that there is aerosol transmission of ich?

I would yes, from date of newly added coral.

Also I would move the QT at least 10' from sump of DT.

Transmission is another possibility with only a couple foot buffer.

 

[Gablami]

I think @HotRocks touched on it, but can you please clarify what you meant when you said you used DT water for water change?

 

[Jwils27]

I am putting two and two together and think this may be flukes. It survived cupermine. Looks like a fleshy swollen bumps. My wrasse has torn up fins and there is no tank aggression. Does not look like ich or velvet. What awesome other indicators? @HotRocks Thanks

Also no fish died from the velvet and they had it in the DT for like two weeks.

 

[Jwils27]

I think @HotRocks touched on it, but can you please clarify what you meant when you said you used DT water for water change?

Yesterday I removed 15 gallons of tank water from the DT and put it in the QT to start acclimating them to DT

 

[ap7x]

So the recommended fallow is 76 days or what not.. to ensure the last recorded ich tomont releases. But excluding that 72 day ich, people still say 45 days to ensure all release and die off.

So if ich encrust one day before therapeutic levels, after your 4 weeks of copper, it can still be encrusted. Then day 35 or whatever, they release and infect as there is no more copper?

Seems like that could be what happened

Edit: if it’s ich.

 

[Jwils27]

So I Just did a FW dip and white things came off look like time white flukes.

 

[Big G]

Treatment for flukes by Humblefish:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/flukes-–-general-guidelines.224423/

 

[NoobReeefer]

So the recommended fallow is 76 days or what not.. to ensure the last recorded ich tomont releases. But excluding that 72 day ich, people still say 45 days to ensure all release and die off.

So if ich encrust one day before therapeutic levels, after your 4 weeks of copper, it can still be encrusted. Then day 35 or whatever, they release and infect as there is no more copper?

Seems like that could be what happened

Edit: if it’s ich.

that could be but im pretty sure the copper will screw up its reproduction, the free swimmers will attach to the fish then fall off and not be able to encrust again.

 

[ap7x]

that could be but im pretty sure the copper will screw up its reproduction, the free swimmers will attach to the fish then fall off and not be able to encrust again.

Well I mean this kind of timeline:

Day 1: Ich encrusts - becomes tomont
Day 2: Copper reaches therapeutic levels
...any ich theronts released are killed.. but...
Day 31 (1 month): You reduce copper from therapeutic..
According to fallow timeline, even without the 72 day variant, still recommend 45? days. Which means tomonts can release theronts at day 35. And copper doesn't kill tomonts so...

Day 35: Theronts release, no copper to kill them, they re-infect

 

[NoobReeefer]

Well I mean this kind of timeline:

Day 1: Ich encrusts - becomes tomont
Day 2: Copper reaches therapeutic levels
...any ich theronts released are killed.. but...
Day 31 (1 month): You reduce copper from therapeutic..
According to fallow timeline, even without the 72 day variant, still recommend 45? days. Which means tomonts can release theronts at day 35. And copper doesn't kill tomonts so...

Day 35: Theronts release, no copper to kill them, they re-infect

the encrust/cyst whatever its called is damaged enough in 30 days of copper that even if it does release the free swimmers after copper isn't at therapeutic levels they can attach to fish but when they fall off 3-7 days later or whatever it is they can't encrust again and the life cycle is dead

 

[ap7x]

I don't think they damage the tomont stage at all.

Here's a quote from Humblefish from another post regarding this kind of issue:

^^ Agree with above; In a perfect world, we would treat for 76 days (by my calculations) or longer. However, IME most fish will not tolerate much more than 30 days of continuous copper exposure. Luckily, most strains of ich complete their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less.

However, to guard against the few strains that don't comply with the "30 day rule" you have 2 options to consider:

1. Observe for 2 to 4 weeks post treatment. You are not just looking for visible physical symptoms (white dots), but behavioral symptoms will usually be noticeable if a fish still has ich or velvet:
   • Rapid breathing
   • Reduced appetite
   • Scratching/flashing
   • Head twitching
   • Erratic swimming behavior
   • Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (usually velvet)
2. Move the fish to another QT (at least 10 feet away.) What you are accomplishing with this strategy is transferring the fish away from any unhatched tomonts (in the original treatment tank.) Only the fish gets transferred and the copper must be at full therapeutic (very important) for 10 straight days (longer is better) before considering this. Needless to say, this option allows no margin for error.

 

[NoobReeefer]

Copper doesn't prevent them from hatching. It does damage them over a long period of time. Copper kills the free swimmers to protect the fish very quickly. Long term exposure to the encysted crypto damages it enough so that even though it may attach and feed on the fish it will no longer be viable to reproduce. There is very little literature on this and I'm sorry to say I lost the paper that discussed it. But, this is why the 30 day treatment followed by removing the copper works.

 

[Humblefish]

I don't think they damage the tomont stage at all.

Here's a quote from Humblefish from another post regarding this kind of issue:

Chemical treatments (e.g. copper) and hyposalinity have only been proven to target the theront or free swimming stage. There is some evidence (but not conclusive) that the protomont might also be negatively impacted.