Ich management recommendations

[d5332]

most sick fish eventually stop eating
QT is only going to keep stuff out if if QT everything and it’s actuallly done properly

If you have ich accept it
Don’t turn your house upside down

A UV filter on your return line will neutralize ich in your tank for good

If you have time to lay doctor there are many things that you can do to try to aid your fish
It will take a lot of your time and in the end many or most will just die anyway

Uv
Return line
No more ich

 

[d5332]

Will the uv save your current fish
Not most
Will help fish that are showing full physical infestation

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

UV sterilization is over rated in its ability to control ich in an aquarium when running as a side stream:

Myth: Ultraviolet Sterilizers eliminate diseases from aquarium water: Ultraviolet units have absolutely no effect on disease organisms, which live on the fish directly and do not need to leave the fish during some part of its life cycle (some protozoans, trematodes and most pathogenic bacteria). Other parasites such as larger protozoans and all multicellular parasites too big to be killed by aquarium-sized UV units. The expected benefits from a properly operating UV sterilizer would be a lowering of the free-floating bacterial and protozoan populations, as well as fairly good control (close to 100%) of these organisms when water flowing from one tank to another first passes through the UV sterilizer. Side-stream sterilization, where the irradiated water is returned to the same tank is was taken from is always less than 100% effective – too many of the target organisms are able to escape passing through the unit and are able to continue to reproduce.

Jay

 

[d5332]

If you say so
I took the advice from a high end reefer over a decade ago

No ich issues since

And I did not say it magically disinfects
That is not what I’ve filters do

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

If you say so
I took the advice from a high end reefer over a decade ago

No ich issues since

And I did not say it magically disinfects
That is not what I’ve filters do

It's not just me, Dr. Noga says in his section on Cryptocaryon - "UV is only effective in controlling spread between aquaria and not in controlling an infection within an aquarium."

Jay

 

[d5332]

like I said.
UV in the return line and you will be fine.

Its what I do, its what everyone that I know that has dumped the equivalent of a home down payment into their fish tanks does and their $1,000 fish remains alive month after month, year after year.

I never said UV's are a solution for eradication, its a solution for containment, preventing reproduction. i.e. sterilization

 

[jasonrusso]

So I'm pretty sure we have ich...i think. No idea where it came from. Haven't added anyone new in about 3 weeks and everyone gets QT first. I have a 75 gal with 2 black clowns, a yellow clown goby, a royal gramma, a splendid pintail fairy wrasse, and a snowflake eel. I also have a coral banded shrimp, a skunk cleaner shrimp and various snails and hermit crabs for CUC. Right now all of the fish are eating very well and are very active. I saw the Royal Gramma rub against the rocks a couple times about a week ago, but could not see anything on her. Tested the water and everything was fine, but did a good water change just in case. She didn't do it again after the water change so I thought maybe there had been something about the water that was bothering her. Everyone has been acting normal. Now I can see a couple white spots on the wrasse's fins and on the gramma when the light hits her just right. And I just now saw her rub on the sand. I know I need to pull everyone out and place them in QT for proper treatment and leave the tank fallow for 76 days. The problem is that I am going out of town for a couple weeks in about 6 weeks so I dont have 76 days to quarantine and treat everyone AND get them back into the tank before I go. I currently have a healthy Tomini Tang in my QT that I was prepping to go in the DT in a couple weeks so I will have to set up a second QT for the rest of my fish for treatment. My dad will be watching our house/animals while we are gone and while he is very responsible, I don't want to put more on him by having to manage the DT with the shrimp, mulitple QTs and having to do semi-frequent water changes on a the "sick fish" QT. My thought was to leave the fish in the DT (obviously will not introduce in the Tomini) just for the time being and manage the ich until we get home from our trip, then move them to QT where I can properly treat them. What, if anything, can I treat the DT with to lessen the effects of the Ich on my fish and keep it manageable until I can put them in QT in November. I know there are no cures other than copper, just looking for input on anything that may help manage until copper treatment in QT is possible. I know there are certain things eels and wrasses can be sensitive to so I would appreciate any input.

Peroxide dosing. It quelled an active ich outbreak.

How To - Peroxide (H2O2) dosing for parasites in reef tank

***Current dosing recommendation for active outbreaks, using 3% hydrogen peroxide*** (a TLDR for people who just need to know how to get started) Week 1: 1mL/8g, 3x per day Week 2: 1mL/5g, 3x per day Week 3: 1mL/5g, 3x per day, plus overnight dosing. Continue the week 3 dosing regimen for a...

humble.fish

 

[jasonrusso]

UV sterilization is over rated in its ability to control ich in an aquarium when running as a side stream:

Myth: Ultraviolet Sterilizers eliminate diseases from aquarium water: Ultraviolet units have absolutely no effect on disease organisms, which live on the fish directly and do not need to leave the fish during some part of its life cycle (some protozoans, trematodes and most pathogenic bacteria). Other parasites such as larger protozoans and all multicellular parasites too big to be killed by aquarium-sized UV units. The expected benefits from a properly operating UV sterilizer would be a lowering of the free-floating bacterial and protozoan populations, as well as fairly good control (close to 100%) of these organisms when water flowing from one tank to another first passes through the UV sterilizer. Side-stream sterilization, where the irradiated water is returned to the same tank is was taken from is always less than 100% effective – too many of the target organisms are able to escape passing through the unit and are able to continue to reproduce.

Jay

I agree with this. The same with a diatom filter. There is zero possibility that all the water is going through the filters.

 

[Pickle_soup]

like I said.
UV in the return line and you will be fine.

Its what I do, its what everyone that I know that has dumped the equivalent of a home down payment into their fish tanks does and their $1,000 fish remains alive month after month, year after year.

I never said UV's are a solution for eradication, its a solution for containment, preventing reproduction. i.e. sterilization

Not sure spending a sishload of money on something makes you an expert. I previously owned a Lifegard QL40 on a 125, and it did absolutely nothing to control ich. It didn't even slow it down. I had multiple wipeouts until I started to care about the crap I put in my tank.

 

[d5332]

You guys are right
OP, please listen to them

Uv, useless
Do not use

 

[Pickle_soup]

You guys are right
OP, please listen to them

Uv, useless
Do not use

You're acting pretty childish.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Peroxide dosing. It quelled an active ich outbreak.

How To - Peroxide (H2O2) dosing for parasites in reef tank

***Current dosing recommendation for active outbreaks, using 3% hydrogen peroxide*** (a TLDR for people who just need to know how to get started) Week 1: 1mL/8g, 3x per day Week 2: 1mL/5g, 3x per day Week 3: 1mL/5g, 3x per day, plus overnight dosing. Continue the week 3 dosing regimen for a...

humble.fish

Two cautions about that: 1) UV and peroxide may not be best, it will break down the peroxide. 2) dosing oxidizers is tricky, there is no single dosing solution for every tank. The amount of free peroxide available to combat ich is based on the presence of organics in the water. These react with peroxide, breaking it down before it can work. Then, those organics get broken down, leaving more unreacted peroxides. I use test strips to tell me the free peroxide dose as it changes over time.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

To chime in..... Too many hear about ich and often say throw in a UV and I agree with jay- UV sterilizers are not erasers and will address free floating protozoans which get through the UV channel. Problem is many persons wait to add a UV once an issue has begun and best advantage would have been to have it in place Before a given issue arises.
Peroxide has been brough up more and more the last few months and is not even used much in the medical industry as it once was. Its an oxidizer and like Polyp Lab Medic has no effect other than an Oxidizer. Peroxide is nothing more than a snake oil and is being promoted with ich management which is a short cut with little effect.
And UV and Peroxide do not work together as its mainly water and sodium chloride stabilized with phosphonic acid, and a phosphate buffer

 

[jasonrusso]

Two cautions about that: 1) UV and peroxide may not be best, it will break down the peroxide. 2) dosing oxidizers is tricky, there is no single dosing solution for every tank. The amount of free peroxide available to combat ich is based on the presence of organics in the water. These react with peroxide, breaking it down before it can work. Then, those organics get broken down, leaving more unreacted peroxides. I use test strips to tell me the free peroxide dose as it changes over time.

Jay

I agree, there is no one size fits all dosing. I am dosing much higher than the thread I posted before I saw results. FWIW, commercial water treatment plants use UV and H2O2 because like you said, it breaks down the peroxide. Regardless of what I dose, test strips show zero peroxide after 45 minutes or so. That's why we slow dose overnight when ich is in the free swimming stage.

To chime in..... Too many hear about ich and often say throw in a UV and I agree with jay- UV sterilizers are not erasers and will address free floating protozoans which get through the UV channel. Problem is many persons wait to add a UV once an issue has begun and best advantage would have been to have it in place Before a given issue arises.
Peroxide has been brough up more and more the last few months and is not even used much in the medical industry as it once was. Its an oxidizer and like Polyp Lab Medic has no effect other than an Oxidizer. Peroxide is nothing more than a snake oil and is being promoted with ich management which is a short cut with little effect.
And UV and Peroxide do not work together as its mainly water and sodium chloride stabilized with phosphonic acid, and a phosphate buffer

How can you make such a definitive statement when many people in the thread I posted (including myself) have had success? There has been several studies on the effectiveness of peroxide dosing and parasites. Here is one of them on velvet.

(PDF) The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

PDF | Ectoparasite infections can cause death or a decline in the general health of farm-raised finfish. This paper reports the findings from two... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[blecki]

Peroxide is amazing as an oxidizer though.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I agree, there is no one size fits all dosing. I am dosing much higher than the thread I posted before I saw results. FWIW, commercial water treatment plants use UV and H2O2 because like you said, it breaks down the peroxide. Regardless of what I dose, test strips show zero peroxide after 45 minutes or so. That's why we slow dose overnight when ich is in the free swimming stage.




How can you make such a definitive statement when many people in the thread I posted (including myself) have had success? There has been several studies on the effectiveness of peroxide dosing and parasites. Here is one of them on velvet.

(PDF) The Application of Hydrogen Peroxide as a Treatment for the Ectoparasite Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) on the Pacific Threadfin Polydactylus sexfilis

PDF | Ectoparasite infections can cause death or a decline in the general health of farm-raised finfish. This paper reports the findings from two... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

This is a farm raised fish and is a study. Realize in the article copper sulfate was also added and why is it LFS dont have bottle of peroxide for ich treatment?
Peroxide has been an aid in treatment as its a disinfectant but you are insisting its a cure- Lets see data- not studies and data providing the many fish susceptible to ich and protozoan

Article says:

. A. Initial treatment: application of copper sulfate pentahydrate 99% at a dosage of 3 kg/acre were used as an initial disinfectant on daily basis for 7 successive days at 12 p.m. 29 , concurrently hydrogen peroxide 40% solutions were added at a dosage of 6.5 L/acre during the early mornings 30 . B. Maintenance treatment: application of Glutaraldehyde (15%)/Quaternary ammonium compounds 25% (QACs) combination at a dosage of 200 ml/acre for 3 successive days in the late afternoon 31 . ...
... The Center for Veterinary Medicine of the United States Food and Drug Administration approved it to treat some infections in fish. Hydrogen peroxide was successively applied to control some parasitic infestations affecting fish, including sea lice, Lepeophtheirus salmonis on fish 47 , protozoan ambiphrya or the trematode Gyrodactylus spp. on rainbow trout, and A. ocellatum on the Pacific thread fish Polydactylussex filis 30 . The most efficient H 2 O 2 doses for controlling protozoan infestations and monogenetic trematodes affecting fish were 170-280 mg/L administered as a static bath for 30 min

 

[jasonrusso]

This is a farm raised fish and is a study. Realize in the article copper sulfate was also added and why is it LFS dont have bottle of peroxide for ich treatment?
Peroxide has been an aid in treatment as its a disinfectant but you are insisting its a cure- Lets see data- not studies and data providing the many fish susceptible to ich and protozoan

Article says:

. A. Initial treatment: application of copper sulfate pentahydrate 99% at a dosage of 3 kg/acre were used as an initial disinfectant on daily basis for 7 successive days at 12 p.m. 29 , concurrently hydrogen peroxide 40% solutions were added at a dosage of 6.5 L/acre during the early mornings 30 . B. Maintenance treatment: application of Glutaraldehyde (15%)/Quaternary ammonium compounds 25% (QACs) combination at a dosage of 200 ml/acre for 3 successive days in the late afternoon 31 . ...
... The Center for Veterinary Medicine of the United States Food and Drug Administration approved it to treat some infections in fish. Hydrogen peroxide was successively applied to control some parasitic infestations affecting fish, including sea lice, Lepeophtheirus salmonis on fish 47 , protozoan ambiphrya or the trematode Gyrodactylus spp. on rainbow trout, and A. ocellatum on the Pacific thread fish Polydactylussex filis 30 . The most efficient H 2 O 2 doses for controlling protozoan infestations and monogenetic trematodes affecting fish were 170-280 mg/L administered as a static bath for 30 min

OK, I just won't believe my lying eyes. 2 tanks, 2 ich outbreaks. Both went away after peroxide dosing. To be honest, I'm still dosing but a aquabiomics test showed no parasite DNA.

What does it matter if it's farm raised fish or not? Don't be so closed minded. If everyone was so closed minded, nothing would ever get discovered.

There MAY be something other than poison copper and CP (that people tick all over now for some reason) that works.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

OK, I just won't believe my lying eyes. 2 tanks, 2 ich outbreaks. Both went away after peroxide dosing. To be honest, I'm still dosing but a aquabiomics test showed no parasite DNA.

What does it matter if it's farm raised fish or not? Don't be so closed minded. If everyone was so closed minded, nothing would ever get discovered.

There MAY be something other than poison copper and CP (that people tick all over now for some reason) that works.

Just to point out that hydrogen peroxide is a “poison” as well.
I’ve studied oxidants in aquariums for over 30 years. Peroxide dosing was extrapolated from that thread fin peroxide dip paper and was presented as highly experimental. Here is an article I put together that includes information on handling/testing:

Hydrogen Peroxide Bench-testing

Bench testing of the effects of hydrogen peroxide in aquariums.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[MythosRaconteur]

Ok, gang... first post here, but have been reading the hell out of the Chloroquine and Ich treatment posts. I am a LONG time aquarist, and @Jay Hemdal, you probably don't remember me, but I created seahorse.org and syngnathid.org and helped several aquaculture facilities get off the ground back in the day... like <ahem> 20 years or so ago... You and I have collaborated on seahorse pathology and some microbiology work way back.

At any rate, I have been without tanks for the better part of 2 decades, raising children and life... I just recently built a FOWLR system with my daughter who is very excited about marine biology.

I had a FO tank back in the day, but it ran just like my reefs, with a sump and skimmer and all the fixin's and it was pretty effortless.

This tank is a 55g running a Penn Plax Cascade 1000 canister filter (I have no experience with these things).

Tank has been up for 4 months or so now, and while my chemistry is great (0 NH3, 0 NO2, <10 NO3, temp 77, SG 1.021, dKH ~12), my pH remains low, hovering around 7.8. I am not chasing it since no one seems affected by it, but rather keep the alk in line.

Denizens:

• Snowflake Moray
• Long-nosed hawk
• Mated pair of ocellaris
• Leopard wrasse
• Porky puffer
• CUC - Astreas, red and blue-legged hermits
• A few softies (colt, ricordea, zoos)

I have been battling an algae bloom which I cannot figure out... my PO4 is ~0.25 or less, which I suppose COULD explain it but seems a bit of a stretch given other conditions. Phosphates went up due to feeding PE Mysis and not draining the effluent (old reefer, remember) - I have fixed that.

Added a Fluval clarifier (UV) to help with that.

Long story even longer, here is my problem.

I was an idiot and got a Powder Brown Tang. I have no QT, but I know both the wholesaler and the retailer and trust them explicitly.

PBT died, my thinking was internal parasite, but not relevant, and I think it brought Ich into my system.

Now my Porky is covered and breathing heavily for the past week. I have FW dipped him, and FW + IchX dipped him 3 times, which helps, but I think is just causing him stress now.

Other fish are flashing very occasionally, but otherwise seem unaffected.

My question is this:

• Copper is not an option without removing the moray
• CP is not an option without removing the wrasse

So, do I pull all the rock, try to rip the wrasse out and use CP?
Pull all the rock and rip the eel out and use copper?
Try to remove all the fish and do a 30-day TTM process while hitting the DT with CP?

I do not have CP on hand and may have to wait to get it. In the meantime I was thinking of trying the Rally Pro Ruby and Kick-Ich combo to see if I could get it down.

Just need some thought-partnership on how to handle this. One big consideration is, I have very limited space and equipment, which means no extra tanks, filters, etc.

Anyone got advice (and something more than anecdotal, what was read on the Interwebz, info)?

Thanks in advance. Really don't want to lose any of these guys, and the Porky is my daughter's fave, so it would be tough...

 

[jasonrusso]

Thanks in advance. Really don't want to lose any of these guys, and the Porky is my daughter's fave, so it would be tough...

Best of luck. Porcupines are my favorite as well.