Ich or velvet diagnosis

[Gobi-Wan]

hi all. The past 2 days my purple tang has been covered in white dots. It physically looks like velvet just by the sheer number of spots. However, the fish is not lethargic or seeking shade, and is still eating very heartily. The only other fish showing signs or symptoms are a foxface on which there are perhaps 10 or so white dots, also eating like normal, and i did see a firefish flash against the sand but neither of the two firefish are looking or acting abnormally. I also have 2 oscellaris, a diamond goby, and melanarus wrasse all seemingly unaffected so far. I will add pictures- keep in mind the purple tang has old scarring from HLLE when it was purchased 3 years ago.
I have coppersafe and api copper test, a 10 gallon aquarium, a hob filter, went out today and bought ammonia alert badge and a bottle of biospira. If I do need to treat all the fish, what size quarantine would I need?
Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Crabs McJones]

The tang tells me velvet for sure. You need to treat all fish in order to eradicate it. 30 days in copper, and 76 days fishless for the display tank. With the size of your fish you'll likely want at least a 40 breeder.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

The tang tells me velvet for sure. You need to treat all fish in order to eradicate it. 30 days in copper, and 76 days fishless for the display tank. With the size of your fish you'll likely want at least a 40 breeder.

Thank you for your quick reply. I have researched the process quite a bit, but i can't seem to find a conclusive comment about whether or not to leave in the filters that come with a HOB filter? as in, whether or not to use carbon while treating in copper

 

[Crabs McJones]

Thank you for your quick reply. I have researched the process quite a bit, but i can't seem to find a conclusive comment about whether or not to leave in the filters that come with a HOB filter? as in, whether or not to use carbon while treating in copper

Do not run carbon. Filter floss is best as it gives the bacteria media to colonize and it doesnt absorb your copper bringing it out of treatment levels.

 

[Qasimja]

dont use carbon when treating copper it will remove it from the water

 

[VJM 21]

Thank you for your quick reply. I have researched the process quite a bit, but i can't seem to find a conclusive comment about whether or not to leave in the filters that come with a HOB filter? as in, whether or not to use carbon while treating in copper

Definitely no carbon, but use the sponge and ceramic media. I’d add a bottle of bio spira to help with ammonia control. I agree with the others that bigger is better if you have the space. A 40B would work for the fish mentioned.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

i am just setting up my old 75. buying a HOB for that will be cheaper than buying a 40b and filter. thanks everyone

 

[Big G]

I have coppersafe and api copper test, a 10 gallon aquarium, a hob filter, went out today and bought ammonia alert badge and a bottle of biospira.

A freshwater dip will remove a tremendous number of the parasites from the fish and especially its gills.
And then a 60 minute bath in Ruby Reef Rally will increase survival rate as it has both antiseptic and antibiotic qualities to help deal with the numerous insertion points of the parasites.
Pre dose the QT to 1.0 ppm of coppersafe. Get to therapeutic 1.75 ppm within 24-48 hours. Small incremental doses are better than large doses.
The API copper test kits and other color matching kits are very unreliable. Way too easy to over dose. Consider getting a Hanna HL Copper Checker. It will lower the stress on both you and the fish.
Have an antibiotic on hand to treat bacterial infections that pop up due to the wounds and the lowering of the fish's immune system by the copper.
Spectrogram is excellent and very easy to dose. Alternative to it is Furan2.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

A freshwater dip will remove a tremendous number of the parasites from the fish and especially its gills.
And then a 60 minute bath in Ruby Reef Rally will increase survival rate as it has both antiseptic and antibiotic qualities to help deal with the numerous insertion points of the parasites.
Pre dose the QT to 1.0 ppm of coppersafe. Get to therapeutic 1.75 ppm within 24-48 hours. Small incremental doses are better than large doses.
The API copper test kits and other color matching kits are very unreliable. Way too easy to over dose. Consider getting a Hanna HL Copper Checker. It will lower the stress on both you and the fish.
Have an antibiotic on hand to treat bacterial infections that pop up due to the wounds and the lowering of the fish's immune system by the copper.
Spectrogram is excellent and very easy to dose. Alternative to it is Furan2.

Thank you so much. i now have the 75 full of water, running a biowheel filter with the carbon removed, added filter floss as well, dosed with biospira. it was the 30 gallon bottle of biospira but i think for the number and size of my fish it should suffice. i am about to mix coppersafe in the 75. i have enough ruby reef rally to dose the 75 4 days in a row, but i am not sure what you mean by a 60 minute bath? how is this done? is it necessary if i plan to dose rally in the 75?
also:
-how much temperature drop can the fish tolerate by floating? the reef is at 78 to 79 degrees, the new water in the qt is at 71.4 and heating. i assume i need to wait quite a while?
-why do people say a therapeutic level needs to me "maintained" is there any reason it would drop other than water-changing with undosed water?
-would it be better to dose rally in the reef and wait until tomorrow to transfer? the tang is still eating heartily right now and acting normal but has been covered in the parasites for 2 days already.
-for my melanarus wrasse, do i need to add a small sandbox? i have a bunch of pvc fittings in the bottom of the QT.

 

[Big G]

Match the temperature of the two tanks.

Maintaining therapeutic: Refill evaporated tank water as normal; but when doing a water change, make sure to pre -dose the new saltwater with copper to the same level as in the tank. Never let the copper level fall below therapeutic otherwise the clock starts over.

For the wrasse a small glass or plastic container with sand is good. Change out the sand once a week to avoid it getting polluted.

PVC fittings are good and adding a few plastic aquarium plants is good too. Lowers stress.

Using Ruby Reef Rally as a 60-90 minute bath in a separate container, temperature controlling the saltwater and providing plenty of aeration by using an air pump & air-stone. Ensure salinity, pH and temperature of bath & QT water match perfectly. Dosage for Bath is ~ 1 teaspoon of Rally per gallon of bath water.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

A freshwater dip will remove a tremendous number of the parasites from the fish and especially its gills.
And then a 60 minute bath in Ruby Reef Rally will increase survival rate as it has both antiseptic and antibiotic qualities to help deal with the numerous insertion points of the parasites.
Pre dose the QT to 1.0 ppm of coppersafe. Get to therapeutic 1.75 ppm within 24-48 hours. Small incremental doses are better than large doses.
The API copper test kits and other color matching kits are very unreliable. Way too easy to over dose. Consider getting a Hanna HL Copper Checker. It will lower the stress on both you and the fish.
Have an antibiotic on hand to treat bacterial infections that pop up due to the wounds and the lowering of the fish's immune system by the copper.
Spectrogram is excellent and very easy to dose. Alternative to it is Furan2.

so the fish goes from the reef, into the freshwater dip, then straight into the rally bath, then into qt?
i have kanaplex on hand, would that work for bacterial infections and be safe with copper/rally?

 

[VJM 21]

so the fish goes from the reef, into the freshwater dip, then straight into the rally bath, then into qt?
i have kanaplex on hand, would that work for bacterial infections and be safe with copper/rally?

I’d hold off on mixing an antibiotic with copper unless you see an infection. The Ruby Reef Rally should help to stave off infection. IMO, you don’t want to play games with velvet. As was recommended by Big G, you’ll want to work up to a therapeutic level of copper as soon as (safely) possible.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

ok thanks guys. i have done the freshwater dip, and the tang is now in a rally bath. i am going to have to wait until tomorrow for the QT to heat up so the tang will go back into the reef tonight when the bath is over. hopefully the dip and rally bath will buy me some time. it still ate a bunch of food today and even continued eating while in the trap before i took it out.

 

[Big G]

so the fish goes from the reef, into the freshwater dip, then straight into the rally bath, then into qt?
i have kanaplex on hand, would that work for bacterial infections and be safe with copper/rally?

Yep. FW dip, then RRR bath, then into the QT.

Kanaplex is a very mild antibiotic. Good to have on hand. For bad cases of Velvet, some like to dose antibiotics immediately with the copper, or some like to wait until the copper is at therapeutic.
Kanaplex can be dosed with Furan2 + Metro. We call it the Trifecta. Together it covers a very wide spectrum.
I prefer to use Spectrogram. It's a blend of Furan2 + Kanaplex.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

Yep. FW dip, then RRR bath, then into the QT.

Kanaplex is a very mild antibiotic. Good to have on hand. For bad cases of Velvet, some like to dose antibiotics immediately with the copper, or some like to wait until the copper is at therapeutic.
Kanaplex can be dosed with Furan2 + Metro. We call it the Trifecta. Together it covers a very wide spectrum.
I prefer to use Spectrogram. It's a blend of Furan2 + Kanaplex.

Ok heres where I'm at. I couldn't get the qt heated up last night so I did the FW dip, then the RRR bath, then back into the reef. She did fine and actually looks much better today, I would say the number of white spots is drastically reduced. She is still out swimming around and eating so that's good. Other fish are still not showing a lot of signs but I have seen a few flashing in the sand. I am starting to wonder if it is actually Ich rather than velvet, however for my course of action it seems to make little difference. Now, I have the QT heated up, temp and salinity matched, and copper dosed. However I can not find a hanna checker. I called all the reef shops and no one has one used or new. In order to get the fish into QT today I'm going to have to trust the API test. Can someone who has dealt with it help me read it? I hate these stupid color tests, they never match what you're seeing.

 

[Big G]

Things that can help to read those stupid color matching kits:
Read the test in shaded, natural light.
When looking at the test, squint your eyes a bit. My wife the artist told me about using this technique that she uses when painting/drawing. It actually works a bit better than just staring at the test.
Have a female read the test. Females are much better than men at analyzing color.

 

[VJM 21]

Just an FYI - M.D. and BRS have the Hannah Copper in stock. Worth every penny IMO

 

[Gobi-Wan]

Just an FYI - M.D. and BRS have the Hannah Copper in stock. Worth every penny IMO

Yeah but how long to ship it? Everyone is mind numbingly slow these days... i was hoping to find one local and now but I guess online is my only option. I guess I'm on the quarantine / permanent ich eradication bus now so I'll be needing a reliable test from now on.

All fish are successfully in the 75 now. Hopefully they will be ok. I ordered a batch of live black worms that arrived today, hoping that will help male it through the adjustment to the copper and qt situation.

 

[Gobi-Wan]

Thank you everyone for your advice that i'm pretty sure saved my purple tang. Once again i came home to find far less white spots on her. We are not out of the woods yet but she is 24 hours in QT now and i am increasing copper steadily. I think i will be able to calculate the exact copper concentration by taking a sample before and after adding a specific amount, and taking both samples to the LFS for a hanna checker test. This should let me get accurately to 2.0 ppm, and in the mean time i can order a hanna checker. at this point i am pretty well committed to quarantine life.

 

[Big G]

Best of luck with your fish.