Ich?

[Brew12]

++1 for velvet. need to treat with copper ASAP
@reefsquared

He's already got them in copper

 

[jenreefer]

He's already got them in copper

yea, just saw that. you guys are too fast for me.

 

[Brew12]

It's either velvet or a really bad case of ich. I would dose copper or CP ASAP.

A FW dip and/or chemical bath (as outlined here) may help if this is velvet.

Just helps cement the diagnosis of Velvet.

I think I need some "learnin" so I hope you guys don't mind my asking for clarification. Not trying to hijack the thread or imply that copper was a bad idea or the diagnosis was wrong. If they were my fish, they would be in copper too.

I'm just a bit confused and want to make sure I understand. It sounds like these showed up in a day and were already dropping off the fish. That would imply an extremely rapid life cycle. Also, the fact that it cleared up in a day also leaves me confused. The copper shouldn't make them drop off the fish any faster, only prevent them from re-infecting. Am I missing something with this?

 

[jenreefer]

I am no expert on Velvet, but my experience is that Copper seems to clear the free swimming rapidly and ones on fish drop off quite rapidly, only to be replaced by masses of free swimming, so if you clear the free swimming, you get rapid, one to two day visual improvement on the fish. This is my theory based on my own experience. I just recently had to treat a friends tank for Velvet, which I am comfortable calling this based on visual appearance alone. I saw complete clearing of massive fish infection in just 48 hours after initiating copper treatment. I will leave it to the experts to confirm or refute this.

sorry for the hijack and detour of this thread.

 

[Brew12]

I am no expert on Velvet, but my experience is that Copper seems to clear the free swimming rapidly and ones on fish drop off quite rapidly, only to be replaced by masses of free swimming, so if you clear the free swimming, you get rapid, one to two day visual improvement on the fish. This is my theory based on my own experience. I just recently had to treat a friends tank for Velvet, which I am comfortable calling this based on visual appearance alone. I saw complete clearing of massive fish infection in just 48 hours after initiating copper treatment. I will leave it to the experts to confirm or refute this.

sorry for the hijack and detour of this thread.

48 hrs I would understand... under 12 hrs is where my confusion would come in to play. Unless I don't understand the actual timeline properly.

 

[jenreefer]

He did a fresh water dip before initiating the copper.

 

[Flybill]

Appreciate all the feedback!
So for a little more info; I did the freshwater dip last night after they were in the low dose of Cupramine for about 10 hours. I also dosed the freshwater with Seachem Paraguard. Heated the RO water in a 5 gallon bucket about half full, aerated, and dipped for 5 minutes. Used a black bucket and checked for remains but unable to tell if any parasites dropped off. Immediately upon return to the tank I noted the majority of the white specks were gone. In the morning they were all gone. They still aren't eating mysis so I'm feeding clams and they attacked it this morning when presented.
I thought that maybe the white spots were just debris from the water also. I guess I can't be 100% sure that they weren't but what's hard to see from a picture is they were somewhat loose and floating around in the current while staying attached. They were significantly larger than the micro bubbles too. This morning one was breathing heavy while yesterday they were breathing normally so I'm wondering if there is some remaining velvet in their gills. Will apply the second dose of Cupramine tomorrow morning which should knock down and remaining swimmers. Not sure if the initial dose would be effective as it's not at full therapeutic level yet. Might do another dip tonight if the dots are back but don't want to overly stress them if it can be helped.
Thank you everyone

 

[Brew12]

Appreciate all the feedback!
So for a little more info; I did the freshwater dip last night after they were in the low dose of Cupramine for about 10 hours. I also dosed the freshwater with Seachem Paraguard. Heated the RO water in a 5 gallon bucket about half full, aerated, and dipped for 5 minutes. Used a black bucket and checked for remains but unable to tell if any parasites dropped off. Immediately upon return to the tank I noted the majority of the white specks were gone. In the morning they were all gone. They still aren't eating mysis so I'm feeding clams and they attacked it this morning when presented.
I thought that maybe the white spots were just debris from the water also. I guess I can't be 100% sure that they weren't but what's hard to see from a picture is they were somewhat loose and floating around in the current while staying attached. They were significantly larger than the micro bubbles too. This morning one was breathing heavy while yesterday they were breathing normally so I'm wondering if there is some remaining velvet in their gills. Will apply the second dose of Cupramine tomorrow morning which should knock down and remaining swimmers. Not sure if the initial dose would be effective as it's not at full therapeutic level yet. Might do another dip tonight if the dots are back but don't want to overly stress them if it can be helped.
Thank you everyone

Thank you for providing more details!

 

[Humblefish]

I'm just a bit confused and want to make sure I understand. It sounds like these showed up in a day and were already dropping off the fish. That would imply an extremely rapid life cycle. Also, the fact that it cleared up in a day also leaves me confused. The copper shouldn't make them drop off the fish any faster, only prevent them from re-infecting. Am I missing something with this?

Chemical treatments (like copper) and hyposalinity only target free swimming theronts, protecting the fish from reinfection. No other stage of the life cycle is affected.

Ich trophonts remain on a fish anywhere from 3-7 days before dropping off; whereas with velvet it can be as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. So, if the "white spots" come & go in less than 3 days, you are likely dealing with velvet.

 

[jenreefer]

Chemical treatments (like copper) and hyposalinity only target free swimming theronts, protecting the fish from reinfection. No other stage of the life cycle is affected.

Ich trophonts remain on a fish anywhere from 3-7 days before dropping off; whereas with velvet it can be as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. So, if the "white spots" come & go in less than 3 days, you are likely dealing with velvet.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Brew12]

Chemical treatments (like copper) and hyposalinity only target free swimming theronts, protecting the fish from reinfection. No other stage of the life cycle is affected.

Ich trophonts remain on a fish anywhere from 3-7 days before dropping off; whereas with velvet it can be as little as 12 hours or as long as 4 days. So, if the "white spots" come & go in less than 3 days, you are likely dealing with velvet.

Thanks Humblefish! So is it normal to see a fish go from covered to clear in 12 hrs after a fresh water dip?

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks Humblefish! So is it normal to see a fish go from covered to clear in 12 hrs after a fresh water dip?

With velvet & brook, yes. The FW dip forces 80-90% of the parasites off of the fish. However, ich trophonts are not usually impacted because they embed so deeply.

 

[Brew12]

With velvet & brook, yes. The FW dip forces 80-90% of the parasites off of the fish. However, ich trophonts are not usually impacted because they embed so deeply.

Thanks again! So much to learn.....

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks again! So much to learn.....

Velvet, brook, uronema, flukes, turbellarians (aka black ich) are all surface parasites. Easily knocked off with chemicals and FW, but you never get them ALL which is why prolonged exposure to copper or CP is still necessary.

Ich trophonts are very different; they burrow in under the epithelium (outer skin layer), which is out of reach for chemicals, osmotic shock, cleaner shrimp/fish, etc.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

So, I would like some clarification. Those pics look like ICH to me. Why do some think it's velvet? Also, in terms of how long ICH trophonts stay on the body, is 3-7 days the gold standard or can it last longer?

 

[melypr1985]

So, I would like some clarification. Those pics look like ICH to me. Why do some think it's velvet? Also, in terms of how long ICH trophonts stay on the body, is 3-7 days the gold standard or can it last longer?

The speed with which the life cycle is moving is very telling. I the pictures it seems pretty clear that velvet is a real concern. The spots are numerous and most of them are very small - consistent with velvet. Either way, copper will treat both so all bases are covered.

 

[4FordFamily]

The speed with which the life cycle is moving is very telling. I the pictures it seems pretty clear that velvet is a real concern. The spots are numerous and most of them are very small - consistent with velvet. Either way, copper will treat both so all bases are covered.

Agree stole the words from my mouth!

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Im just trying to understanding the two main "white spot" diseases. The white dots you see on fish with ICH technically happen "overnight", no? In other words, the parasite could be burrowing under the skin for a few days already or am I off?

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Im just trying to understanding the two main "white spot" diseases. The white dots you see on fish with ICH technically happen "overnight", no? In other words, the parasite could be burrowing under the skin for a few days already or am I off?

 

[Brew12]

Im just trying to understanding the two main "white spot" diseases. The white dots you see on fish with ICH technically happen "overnight", no? In other words, the parasite could be burrowing under the skin for a few days already or am I off?

If I understand the lifecycles properly, ich will develop slower than velvet. If it shows up very quickly in large number is it more likely velvet than ich. Ich penetrates deeper and has to grow into something that can be seen. This takes more time. Velvet stays closer to the surface so becomes visible more quickly.
Even knowing this, I still can't tell the difference by looking at most pictures. I try to stay very active on this section of the forum but there is nothing like the hands on experience in seeing hundreds or thousands of cases that Humblefish and Melypr have seen.