ick question , need help asap
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Pkunk35
Valuable Member
Do you have much invertebrate life (pods, worms, crabs, etc)? Hyposalinity treatment will kill all invertebrate life in the tank so you must remove them.
Please read here, some really good info on this treatment, its not a very easy thing to do to a DT (and I'm not so sure i recommend it in the DT anymore):
A Hyposalinity Treatment Process
You can dip fish for 5 mins or more, but you must watch their breathing closely and stop treatment if breathing becomes very rapid. I believe treatment must be at least a couple mins long to have any effect, obviously the longer the dip time the better but don't stress the fish more than you have to.
As far as the tang goes, its good that he's eating but the concern with ick I believe is infection of the gills which stops breathing. I've had fish eating like pigs with ich and then become lethargic and listless the next day due to gill infection. I'm not saying this is normal but "ick" is a very general term so its impossible to know what kind of timeline your tang is dealing with.
I'll be honest here...you sure you don't have room for a temp 20 gal somewhere? Your chances will be improved GREATLY by doing this in a controlled separate environment. A 20 gal is cheap, super easy to carry and super easy to setup. It will also act as a quarantine tank when you need it to.
Another option is to do as REEF911 suggests and use fresh garlic and lots of good food to try and get the immune system to help fight the ick. You run the risk of losing all your fish tho if the ick does not subside.
Please read here, some really good info on this treatment, its not a very easy thing to do to a DT (and I'm not so sure i recommend it in the DT anymore):
A Hyposalinity Treatment Process
You can dip fish for 5 mins or more, but you must watch their breathing closely and stop treatment if breathing becomes very rapid. I believe treatment must be at least a couple mins long to have any effect, obviously the longer the dip time the better but don't stress the fish more than you have to.
As far as the tang goes, its good that he's eating but the concern with ick I believe is infection of the gills which stops breathing. I've had fish eating like pigs with ich and then become lethargic and listless the next day due to gill infection. I'm not saying this is normal but "ick" is a very general term so its impossible to know what kind of timeline your tang is dealing with.
I'll be honest here...you sure you don't have room for a temp 20 gal somewhere? Your chances will be improved GREATLY by doing this in a controlled separate environment. A 20 gal is cheap, super easy to carry and super easy to setup. It will also act as a quarantine tank when you need it to.
Another option is to do as REEF911 suggests and use fresh garlic and lots of good food to try and get the immune system to help fight the ick. You run the risk of losing all your fish tho if the ick does not subside.
Saltgator
Tang Keeper
Anything you add (such as the methylne blue) will stay within your system rocks and sand and could also stain your silicone too (running carbon will remove it, but I'm not taking that chance) . Even if you were to remove the purple, the ich is now present and until it is left without a host (fishless 8-9 weeks) or you place the entire DT in hypo, the chance remains present for future outbreaks with any fish, including the ones that look as if they haven't caught it yet. The hypo method has worked better than anything has for me and is my preferred method simply because of my concern of my fish and the effects the medicine can have on a fish's liver. The CUC and urchin and anything else in the invert or coral category would have to be taken out if your DT was placed in hypo. The hypo needs to last 8-9 weeks to be able to rid any last stragglers of ich. The FW dip does help, but the stage your seeing ich in is a phase that only last a few days then releases itself into the water column. The FW dip only helps remove those at present on the tang and not already within the water column, rocks, and sand. Garlic does boost the fishes immune system, but so does vitamin C for us (yet we continue to have a cold or allergies. Only removing ourselves from the infection or dealing with the sickness via medicine works in the end). GL and sorry if I'm sounding stern, I know how ich can be and have list some of my favorite fish to it.
Country Boy using tapatalk on his EVO
Country Boy using tapatalk on his EVO
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ks_reeftank
Active Member
i have 10 blue leg crabs, the urchin, and i had put a "pods package" from www.reefs2go.com in there a few weeks back. tank has a firefish, small yellow watchman goby, 2 clowns, and the purple.
maybe i should have made a poll on here.
get a 20 gal and move all fish to it ( i assume use the bottle of bacteria to cycle the tank) while lowering the salinity to 1.009 in that tank
or just put the DT in hyposalintiy mode.
if i choose the 20gal, is that all i do? wait with lower salt level
& Saltgator you are against the methylne blue?
maybe i should have made a poll on here.
get a 20 gal and move all fish to it ( i assume use the bottle of bacteria to cycle the tank) while lowering the salinity to 1.009 in that tank
or just put the DT in hyposalintiy mode.
if i choose the 20gal, is that all i do? wait with lower salt level
& Saltgator you are against the methylne blue?
SeahorseKeeper
Where's the mysis?
You will want to slowly lower the salinity with the fish in the tank. You do not want to do this too quick (or too slow) to be safe and effective. You will also want to keep plenty of SW on hand, test kits and even prime. You can put some filter floss in the DT and let some of the beneficial bacteria build up on the filter floss. Then, you can use the filter floss in the QT. Also, make sure you are using a refractometer to measure the salinity. You need to be very accurate.
Saltgator
Tang Keeper
I've tried it and it seemed to work, but putting chemicals in my fishes water is not my choice. Hypo is my method that works great and I never have to worry on a certain amount of chemical to add or if it's working. If you do a 20 gallon, just put 20 gallons of your DT water in there and start dropping salinity slowly. You can always add new SW to the system while it's fishless.
Country Boy using tapatalk on his EVO
IMO, if the fish is eating well, you are better off leaving it in the tank and continuing to feed it. If it stops eating, you're probably going to loose it anyway. Stressing by doing hypo all the time could make it stop eating. Here is a good source of info; http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
FWIW, garlic only stimulates the feeding of the fish and has no proven medicinal properties for killing ich. Just like cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses do not eat the ich parasite.
FWIW, garlic only stimulates the feeding of the fish and has no proven medicinal properties for killing ich. Just like cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses do not eat the ich parasite.
Aquarium Fish: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans: Part One of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 1 of 5 part series in Advanced Aquarist Magazine.
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon Irritans, Part Two Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 2 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon Irritans, Part Three Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 3 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans Part Four of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 4 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon irritans, Part Five Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 5 of 5
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html
[URL="http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php"]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.php
[URL="http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php"]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
[URL]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php[/URL][/URL][/URL]
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon Irritans, Part Two Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 2 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon Irritans, Part Three Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 3 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans Part Four of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 4 of 5
Aquarium Fish: News From The Warfront With Cryptocaryon irritans, Part Five Of Five — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog 5 of 5
http://www.chucksaddiction.com/ich.html
[URL="http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-10/sp/feature/index.php"]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-1...ture/index.php
[URL="http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php"]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php
[URL]http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php[/URL][/URL][/URL]
Last edited by Murfman; 10-09-2011 at 09:51 AM.
Last edited:
Bry
Well-Known Member
I used Hypo on my FOWLER DT tank several months ago. 75 gallon with about 90 lbs of live rock. Removed the hermits and snails and left all live rock and sand. Had no Ammonia or Nitrite spikes. Dropped from 1.025 to 1.009 over about 4 days and kept it there for 10 weeks. I took 2 weeks to bring it back to 1.025 and the fish did great! No signs of any ich returning. I did accumulate a fair amount of hair algae with the lack of CUC, but it was a small price to pay to save the fish. Good luck whatever route you choose... But the Hypo beats all the chemical treatments I've used in the past for ease and effectiveness.
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OP
ks_reeftank
Active Member
hypo sounds like the way im going, im just stuck on if i should get a 20 gal tank or not.
The new move may stress them more, but in future i will need it if i add new things to the tank.
Ugh, space is an issue. i have 3 kids, and have already turned my 2 bedroom home into a 3.
& what to do with the crabs and urchin....
Also i do not have a refractometer, im using a Instant Ocean Hydrometer.
The new move may stress them more, but in future i will need it if i add new things to the tank.
Ugh, space is an issue. i have 3 kids, and have already turned my 2 bedroom home into a 3.
& what to do with the crabs and urchin....
Also i do not have a refractometer, im using a Instant Ocean Hydrometer.
Pkunk35
Valuable Member
guys, methylene blue is only used for dips and it is only a general preventative not a cure: MethyleneBlue
sorry if i was unclear on that. Do not use it in the tank but it is safe to dip fish in.
sorry if i was unclear on that. Do not use it in the tank but it is safe to dip fish in.
Bry
Well-Known Member
Please don't do it without a Refractometer! Borrow one if you must!
A hydrometer is not accurate enough.
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OP
ks_reeftank
Active Member
hmm, well i guess i get a refractor on order. i dont know anyone else in my town ( pop 2500 ) or anyone in surroundings towns that has one. i will ask the fish store in morning who all around may have one. sometimes i hate living in small town
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ks_reeftank
Active Member
update : called LFS , he said to just dip in freshwater for 5 min, do this for a couple days, and if it comes back then he has some all natural stuff to add to the tank that he says works.
so many different views, i just want to do it the right way.
so many different views, i just want to do it the right way.
Pkunk35
Valuable Member
IMO the right way has been discussed (QT tank the fish in hypo and let the tank go fallow for 6-8 weeks).
I don't trust "all natural stuff" that cures ick. I would be wary of this LFS's advice.
Please read this, I found it last night:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
Here are some highlights of pertinent info:
1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.
8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!
9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.
11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium. ( in your case, your LFS)
13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.
14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.
AND THE IMPORTANT PART:
Treatments:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See:http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...t-process.html
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See:http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...-problems.html
3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. Only the above 3 known readily available cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect. There are certain (human) prescription drugs that will work also, but they are not available to the public and really shouldn't be used when these three are so effective. (Those drugs still require a quarantine tank treatment).
5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment. Use artificial SAFE decorations in the QT.
6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .
7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).
8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).
9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.
10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success. Keep the aquarium running normally -- lighting on as usual, pumps, filtration, feeding inverts, and maintain normal tropical temperatures (78F is good).
I don't trust "all natural stuff" that cures ick. I would be wary of this LFS's advice.
Please read this, I found it last night:
Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
Here are some highlights of pertinent info:
1, The parasite has several ‘stages’ in its life cycle. Cyst in aquarium (usually on substrate, decoration, wall, equipment, or rock) ruptures into free-swimming parasites that burrow into fish, grow into a visible white nodule that is ‘pregnant’ with more parasites, that usually falls off the fish to form a cyst that starts the cycle over again.
8. Spots appear then disappear as MI goes through its cycle. Remember 2. This 'disappearing act' is what leads uninformed aquarists to believe the fish are cured. This is the dumbest thing aquarists can possibly think about this parasite!
9. Parasite likes infecting the fish’s gills. The tissue there has more water passing by so there is an increase in chance the free-swimming parasite will get to the gill. This is one reason why fast breathing (over 80-90 swallows in one minute) is one of the symptoms of possible infection.
11. Parasite is transmitted in water (free-swimming and cyst stages), or by falling off of an infected fish (even one that seems healthy because of 9.). This means that water OR fish from another aquarium can carry the disease to another aquarium. ( in your case, your LFS)
13. There is no such thing as a dormant stage for MI. The parasite can’t wait around for another host. It MUST go through its cycle. Dr. Burgess recorded that in the cyst stage, he found the longest existing cyst to last for 60 days before releasing the free-swimming parasites. This is rare but possible.
14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.
AND THE IMPORTANT PART:
Treatments:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Hard to control pH and water quality during treatment. This is the least stressful treatment for the fish. See:http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...t-process.html
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. Can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress. The fish may stop eating. See end of this post for other things that can go wrong. See:http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/...-problems.html
3.. Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. Only the above 3 known readily available cures work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the MI parasite, but only in special conditions (not good for the fish) or in lab experiments (not using marine fish). Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect. There are certain (human) prescription drugs that will work also, but they are not available to the public and really shouldn't be used when these three are so effective. (Those drugs still require a quarantine tank treatment).
5. Not any of the treatments can be done in a display tank with true live rock. Must be done in a hospital tank or quarantine tank. The hyposalinity and the copper treatment would kill invertebrates, live rock, and other non-fish marine life. Substrates and carbonates interfere with a copper treatment. Use artificial SAFE decorations in the QT.
6. No known ‘reef-safe’ remedies work consistently. Many aquarists think a particular remedy works when in fact the fish acquire an immunity or defense against the parasite. It’s easy for any manufacturer to have an independent study done on the effectiveness of the ‘reef-safe’ remedy but they don’t because. . .
7. Cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasses are not known to pick these parasites off of fish. (See 10. above).
8. Freshwater dips can kill some of the parasites on/in the fish, but not all of them because many of the parasites are protected by the fish's skin and mucous layer. (See 10. above).
9. No dip can get rid of these parasites because primarily of 10. above.
10. Let aquarium go fishless (without any foreign saltwater additions (e.g., water from LFS system, water from another tank or system -- use only distilled or RO/DI for evaporation and freshly made, uncontaminated salt water for water changes), without contamination from infected tanks, live rock additions, etc.) for at least 8 weeks and the tank will be free of MI. This 'fallow period' has over a 99.9% chance of success. Keep the aquarium running normally -- lighting on as usual, pumps, filtration, feeding inverts, and maintain normal tropical temperatures (78F is good).
OP
OP
ks_reeftank
Active Member
thread update , headed to walmart to get a 20gal. oredered a refractometer, shipped priority mail. i have to drop salinity slowly so i have a day or two anyways. super excited about spending over $100 that i had not budgeted for , but doing it the right way is best and you usually end up spending less in long run if you want to look at it like that and it is the easiest on the fish. dipping the tang again tonight for 5 min just for good measure
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tennman
New Member
be careful not to stress tang expecially powder blues you will end up with popeye and most likely death do yuor other fish show signs of ich? if not you may be misreading symtoms stress on tangs is worse than anything i have seen causes all kinds of propblems GOOD LUCK i love tangs
tennman
New Member
I would try the salinity way in a qu. tank so you are not stressing fish so much careful tho this takes paitents and time with ich you have a little time if you stress fish into popeye then you have very little time and you have to treat 2 propblems i have never cured a tang from popeye
OP
OP
ks_reeftank
Active Member
other fish show no signs , i just got this tang 2 weeks ago. i did not notice any spots, my girlfriend said she did notice a few but didnt say anthing as she knows nothing about fish. when i saw a lot of white spots on the tang she said something about the tang having a few on him before when i first got him.
tang not acting too well after the freshwater dip. i hate going through this. still had lots of white spots on it after a 5 min dip so i dont really see what it helped.
hoping he starts acting more normal and we can go from there. after seeing the reaction, i am not liking dipping in freshwater
tang not acting too well after the freshwater dip. i hate going through this. still had lots of white spots on it after a 5 min dip so i dont really see what it helped.
hoping he starts acting more normal and we can go from there. after seeing the reaction, i am not liking dipping in freshwater
